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Wednesday, April 30, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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25 comments:
One word: Awww!
Wade, you are probably looking for expert commentary concerning hand-raising vs. mother-raising, but since I have none to offer, I can only admire.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Would Joe agree, or disagree? LOL
Wade
Wade, I think Joe started doing the white lion/white tiger thing for me back in 1995, but over the years he has been hooked by this grand passion also. Sometimes he surprises me when I overhear him talking to someone about them, with what he knows and the questions he asks. Now I have not returned the favor with enthusiasm for baseball, but I no longer just sit in my seat and daydream during a game. LOL
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
The more knowledge you can gain from something the more you can appreciate it and understand it. I value public opinion or another side, if it is valid and not venomous. Look at what is said here. Have I done, or said anything but state a opinion based on what I know, and stand corrected when I am wrong. Why have my collaborators fled on the Beatty issue. Why would they not tell us what training is? Remember I was scoffed at when I suggest it was a dark, closed society? I love animals, and that has never changed, regardless of where they are at. I accept them for what they are.
Wade
Wade, you have been one of the most open people I have met on the subject of animals. Many other people have been far more guarded, or if they open up to me, they let me know that it is in the strictest of confidence, and I respect that confidence. So many people don't talk because of fear of their employers, fear of their peers, fear of the AR people, fear of the AZA and SSP (we haven't even gone there yet). Only your collaborators can tell you exactly why they fled, but I suspect that it is because of some form of fear. Fear of confronting the issues, fear of the opinions of others, etc.? I don't know.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
If nothing else, never doubt my respect for animals. Often they get in the way of egos. If you buy a race car, does that make you a race car driver? If you buy an airplane, does that make you a pilot. When you are told to do something with an animal that somebody else owns, and I have against my better judgment, they are not an inanimate object, they are a living breathing thing. By the same token the one questioning had better be more of an expert then what their dog spot tells them.
Wade
Fear!!!!!!
Fear of what!!!!!
I have laid off the blog recently because of a discussion with Wade that has made me rethink what I will listen to as truth, and what is said for no purpose then to discredit what others have done. Am I with it and for it? Absolutely! Was I born into to it? NO! Do I feel like an outsider? NO! I am not sure when Wade got the ax he feels must be ground, but don't ever doubt he has one. I have long since quit doing things, just because someone said thats how things are done. I very much appreciate the counsel I have received from Wade on "training" tigers. I feel he is hands down the best "American born" tiger trainer ever, and that will be noted someday I am sure. That said, training of animals is not some mystery that no one can figure out, it is quite simple actually.
It is teaching animals specific responses to specific conditions or stimuli. Training may be for the purpose of companionship, detection, protection, or entertainment.
Stimuli can be Negative or Positive
Responses can be Coaxed or Forced
All this talk of a standard, is just that, talk. in the late 80's Army MaGuire came up with the S.T.A.R.S for training and handling elephants, and tried to collectively get circuses and zoos to use this system. Many zoos used his system, and many circuses laughed in his face. It is a shame, because it is a great system. A standard was offered, and no one wanted it. Maybe my generation will eventually agree on one.
Casey,
Why did zoos embrace it and the circus didn't? Do zoo's not know what they are doing, or do they? Or does the circus not know what they are doing, or do they? That is a very good point. Then we can ask again what is training in regards to what we do?
Wade Burck
I wan't insinuating you were born in the circus, Casey. I knew better. I joined when I was 18. How old were you. I hope the cat's are well.
Wade
Casey,
What was said to discredit what someone did? Can anybody else point that out to me?
Wade
No the zoos were on the rite track for sure, however it did not seem to change the fact that most zoos are moving to Protected Contact, or complete hands off. I feel that everything that is done with an animal in our business, should be regarded as training, from feeding and watering to doing "tricks" in the act. Much the same as barn manners are as important as how an elephant works in the show.
Casey,
Which way should we get those responses. Is everybody capable of distinguishing the difference between coasxed and forced?
Wade
P.S This is almost like Showfolk, thanks for the visual aid.
The "how to get responses is a long debate". Some trainers would suggest dropping 10% of the animals natural weight, then reinforcing with food, any behavior closer to the desired behavior. Others would suggest applying stimuli or pressure to the animal to direct it's body into the desired behavior. In these to methods there are many degrees of pressure, that are up to the trainers discretion. In the first method, the "pressure" comes from hunger, and a trainer can go overboard and drop to much weight from the animal. Just as with tactile stimuli a trainer can become abusive, being hungry is abusive as well, and lasts longer then a pop with a whip. I would suggest rather then a standard of how to train animals, it would be more likely to establish "parameters" of how much pressure can be applied and how. But, as you and I both know, those parameters would be set aside when a tiger for example was chewing on either of us. So I ask, what would become the exceptions to the "standard", and who among us is qualified to decide? The guy who has been chewed on the most, or the guy who has been chewed on the least? A democratic vote? Who would monitor this? This is why, it is all talk, yes, much like showfolks.
To answer the two questions I missed, First off I was 9 years old when I joined a show with my family. Do I consider myself second generation? Not really, as all my family has left the business. Have I had "towner jobs"? Yes Do I love the Circus? Yes Have I trained animals in other industries? Yes Why do I continue training animals in the circus? Because I can make a good living at it. Am I ashamed by the circus animal industry? Yes sometimes.
The second question, I planned on not addressing in public, but you want answers. The discrediting was in a phone call were a trainers abilities were some how less by the fact he was killed by an animal. I suggest that is in correct. I feel Dale Earnhardt would be an example of a similar scenario, in another industry. Secondly was the judgment of tools, which as far as I know, you never saw used. You could speculate maybe, but, never know they're purpose. I am not condoning it's use, but I maintain, a 2" diameter broom handle was as much normal operating procedure at the time, as hockey sticks, or any other for of hard wood stick.
To answer the original question of "where are my contributors?" I took the names down without the aid or consent of Zych or Ben, as I have not found away to remove just mine. Fear has zero to do with this decision, but rather, I feel Wade is doing fine as a one man show, and is not really looking for opinion, unless it matches his. Very quick to point out "after 40 years" (20 of which were not in this industry) he is as set in his decisions on what is rite and wrong. As others have been accused of being "Pro-Circus" I suggest he is "Pro-Wade" What does that mean? When his finger is pointed, don't point in another direction. When I have figured out how to remove just my name, I will put just the other three names back up. I chose not to contribute, and will keep the little bit of dirty circus laundry I have in my own washing machine.
I feel this quote from my friend Mike McClure sums my feeling on this blog and my industry in general now. It is from a great song called "Saints in the Twilight"
You can cuss me and you can spit,
Break windows, throw the phone and shit
I don't care I just wanna be left alone.
Tried to find out how we feel,
tried to get down to where it's real,
And if it's not there I just as soon get gone.
We're alittle off center off to the left, out in the wilderness tryin to cut a path.
Covered up is covered up and over grown.
Alittle off center off to the right, two times a sinner saints in the twilight.
Wavin me in, wavin me back home.
Casey,
Brilliant. Show me where I am pro Wade, and show me where I have defended my statements with facts. As for sticks, I use fiber glass cattle shifting poles, available in any feed store. I prefer longer bamboo poles, but they are not always available. The fiber glass, at 5'2" tends to be too short. I am most I have known, prefer at least 6 to 7 foot. And they have a tip on the end for a piece of meat.
Casey,
You drop no weight off the animal. I have never heard of that, and don't know where you came up with it. Do you think they drop weight off of Killer Whales, dolphins, falcons, etc. Of course not. If an animal eats, lets say 20 lbs of meat a day once a day, to train him you use 15 cut in small pieces, and the other 5 at feeding time. He still get what is necessary to be a healthy animal. Same with sea mammals. As an example 5 shows a day 5 lbs of fish each show for 25 lbs. 2 shows a day 10 lbs for the show, and 15 at the end of the day. Nothing cut, don't know where you got that.
Wade
Though I have never trained marine mammals, I have seen this done with Birds, Rodents, Domestic Cats, and Sheep. The animal prior to training was weighed to acquire natural weight, then weighed down 10% to "working weight" I saw this done by several movie and zoo trainers, at several facilities. Was that a training secret I wasn't sposed to share. Sorry
Casey,
Of course not. It is not my or our secret. It is just something that is not done with wild animals in my field, speaking for the ones I have been around, and seen and discussed with. I can't speak to birds, rodents, cats or sheep and the others, but I personally, don't see where a 10% drop in body weight is of importance. Much better then over weight. I also noted animals that force that you mentioned would either hurt them or cause them to flee. Maybe it is a better alternative. I don't know.
Wade
Yes, Casey, the blog does have a decidedly unpleasant, bitter tone at times, which is unfortunate. It could have been something good.
If Wade comes across this vindictively in what he writes, God help anyone who has the misfortune to actually know him. The no spin blog is mostly multiple posts by wade shooting down anyone who disagrees with him. Where's the educational or entertainment value in THAT.
Not that anyone will ever see this annonymous post, but it gave me a little satisfaction to write it.
Casey, you didn't go back far enough to see the mini me Gunther Bra....LOL....And I still want to know why the goats are behind the ring? No wisecracks Wade, just the facts please.
To anonymous in defense of Wade.
Although I really know nothing of the training you are speaking, I do take offense that Wade wants the discussion his way. I have read the questions and answers and can't see why each question isn't answered and debated on and on if that's the necessity. I have spent many hours with Wade discussing methods of training and even though we don't always agree on every method every time, none of the methods were that different. I think he has an amusing way of interjecting a bit of humour and trying to keep things light but it seems there must be some other underlying reasons it turns so disruptive. I think also the way these blogs are set up that sometimes it becomes similar to a divorce lawyer, in the beginning the parties agree and then the lawyers stir it up. It becomes difficult sometimes to keep track of the answers coming back and forth as they are out of sequence and I think this interjects the "lawyer effect".
I have almost no agreement in training with John Harriett but that doesn't mean I am going to take my marbles and go home not that I don't respect the man's knowledge. I love the discussion back and forth and in the end instead of stamping my feet, I agree to disagree.
These pictures are fantastic !
Mary Ann, Dianne,
Thank you. I just censored a post from John Herriott, asking why I didn't answer the guestion, and I think Dianne and I did, but he invalidated it. He raised it, that's why I want his answers. He suggested that GGW only achieved fame from marrying the show owners daughter. I didn't run that post as two fine young trainers in Europe have done the same, and I didn't want aspersions cast on them by that sorry statement.
I think he is making it worse by not answering. What are we seeing of this open world?
Wade
Wade. sometimes it amazes me how low some people will stoop to try to make someone else look bad. Why?
Mary Ann
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