Tuesday, August 19, 2008

Elephant controversy from both sides--Normally the best way to make a learned decision

Above is an elephant born in 1982 making him 26 years old. Below is Roman born in 1983 making him 25 years old.
This is the you tube which decided that Roman was indeed BIG BOY the Million Dollar Elephant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZp3gE4OkZs

This is another you tube of BIG BOY THE MILLION DOLLAR ELEPHANT. He became The Million Dollar Elephant because that is what it is rumored for years that Ringling Bros. paid for Tommy or King Tusk. I wonder if David Blasko who owned Roman could confirm that amount, or is that some more Circus "tongue in cheek?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6dgt8noGhM

Now let's look at this statement, and look at what we learned: "That is the beauty of Buckles blog, with a few opinions we always get to the facts."

Wade G. Burck said...

Buckles,
I will defer to your expertize, but do you think he is a bit on the lean side? The "eye grease" appears to be disguising other "drainage".
Wade Burck

Buckles said...

The title of the tape is CIRCO CHINO DE PEKIN.
I gather this is a Chinese Circus.
The elephant is rather raw boned in build which makes him perfect for those power tricks which are usually lost as they grow up and gain weight.
The prop guy looks looks Spanish and learned how to roll a tub from Gunther.


"At this point we learned that the elephant in the you tube video was "rather raw boned in build" instead of "one the lean side", but no thoughts on the "eye grease" which is normally just put around the eye and immediate surrounding area.

Wade G. Burck said...

Buckles,
Again deferring to your expertize, I would have guessed him at 16-20. How raw boned should you keep them for power tricks, before it does physical damage in the future as they mature and gain weight? Or doesn't it have any bearing?
Wade Burck

18 August, 2008 21:36

On second viewing "Big Boy" looks more the age Wade Burck suggests.
Buckles

Now we learned that in addition to being raw boned, he is between 16 and 20, but no answer to how raw boned should you keep them for power tricks, before it does physical damage in the future as they mature and gain weight? Or doesn't it have any bearing?" And this "who also went South" is something you don't even want to touch or ask about.

Jim Z said...

In '94 I delivered Blasko's Male Roman to Mexico (He thought it was goin to a Zoo, which it did, Fuentes Zoo)

Now we learned that Roman who became THE MILLION DOLLAR ELEPHANT when he was 10, was thought to have been sold to a zoo, by the man who sold him instead of to Circus Fuentes.

Let review what we have learned so far with only a few opinions. THE MILLION DOLLAR ELEPHANT is actually Roman who was sold to, they thought a zoo in 1994 and although he looks like he is between 16-20 years old he is actually 25. His "a bit on the lean side" physic, is actually "rather raw boned in build which makes him perfect for those power tricks which are usually lost as they grow up and gain weight. "What we didn't learn was "How raw boned should you keep them for power tricks, before it does physical damage in the future as they mature and gain weight? Or doesn't it have any bearing?"

"Remember an elephant that looks between 16-20 is actually 25 and was on his way to a zoo when he was ten. His name was Roman, and he is raw boned and not lean. Is there anything else we learned, or have I missed something?

Oh yes, as you go backwards the controversy at the Dallas zoo involves sending an elephant to a zoo in Mexico

The young man working THE MILLION DOLLAR ELEPHANT was in Monte Carlo last year as a trapeze artist.
"This elephant is called Big Boy, belonging to the Fuentes-Gasca family. He is billed as "el elefante de los miliones de dollares". The guy in white presenting Big Boy and applauding is not less than Gino Maravilla: the very same that achieves the quadruple.' But that's alright his father bought the elephant for him, and his father owns the show. So he is more then qualified to handle a mature male elephant. That's what the extra "eye grease" was hiding. But he has a lot of help. If you look at the various you tubes of THE MILLION DOLLAR ELEPHANT you will see at least 4 different people presenting him and his act. I would like to ask the preeminent expert if he thinks that is advisable, but I am sure I will not get an answer. Watch the you tube of THE MILLION DOLLAR ELEPHANT doing what is called a "power trick", or a "hind leg walk" watch the moisture exhale out the end of his truck when he finishes. Now hold your breath for a long time, and then exhale. Why do we and animals normally hold our breath?
What we didn't learn was "How raw boned should you keep them for power tricks, before it does physical damage in the future as they mature and gain weight? Or doesn't it have any bearing?"

15 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wade, the "getting to the facts" that I mentioned was only to the fact that I learned that "Big Boy" is "Roman" and not "Louie" as I was led to believe some years ago. As for the power tricks, I am not a fan of any full grown adult elephant doing alot of these things as it has to have some later effect. My opinion on the raw-boned issue is this example, I remember seeing pictures of Bobby Moore's "Emma" and thinking she looked skinny/underweight. Then I had the opportunity to work around her at the Ringling farm. Looking at her and touching her up close I realized that my initial observation was wrong, she is that body type, high peak center and long gangly legs. "Big Boy" is very similar in build, so is "Romeo" son of "Petely". This type is typically from Burma. Bucky Steele did alot research on these extreme builds and discussed them in his manuscript Nomenclature of Elephants. For me to answer this question I would have to see him in person.

Wade G. Burck said...

Joey,
Point taken, but what about the insight that the owner thought he was going to a zoo? If a race horse, specially bred for running will damage or breakdown. What actually documented studys have been done on a rawboned built elephant being suit for those behaviors, without future problems. What is a recognized means of dealing with a bulling elephant. Is cutting back on his food intake acceptable? I think it is a natural no harming issue. But what of doing those "power tricks" year after year in at condition while the body is growing. What valid studies have been done on any future physical issues.
Regards,
Wade

Anonymous said...

I don't know what Mr. Blasko thought. I know he was very much a supporter of zoo/circus/themepark cooperation which he should be commended for. I am looking at a winter '94/'95 EMA interview with him right now. If he didn't know where he sent his animal then shame. As for the study of raw-boned elephants performing big tricks, who is more qualified to study this? The scientific community that doesn't care or the elephant men that have breathed these animals as religion for decades? I have a friend, Prof. Micheal Rowe (not from Dirty Jobs), he has done many studies on elephant heat exchange, oxygenation and metabolic rates with his Mega Herbivore Research Unit in Africa and at American zoos (free contact of course). He is at the University of Indiana right now and is planning another study soon with Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and Audubon zoos. His last time with us he had the elephants wear a plastic garbage can mask over thier trunks connected to an inhalation machine to capture and read oxygen while we walked the entire length of the zoo. You should have seen the looks from the public. Anyway, I will get him on this blog and he may have some answers or opinions.

Anonymous said...

Wade, continued power tricks on large elephants has been known to cause them to rupture inside. No one seemed to care about that with males before the captive breeding of elephants became important.

Wade G. Burck said...

Joey,
In regards to who would be more qualified, I would 100% say anybody from the animal community who doesn't have a financial/personal stake in the results, and 100% anybody from the scientific community who doesn't have a "personal ax to grind."
I have been involved in some heavy animal controversies, just because I was there, and I have yet to find anything that was not for the betterment of the animals in the changes. Even if they didn't seem to do any good, they sure didn't do any harm. After 34 years if I suggest to a USDA official that the tigers don't need that much vertical height, he suggests I am wrong. If I suggest what they need is more floor space, my community suggests I am a trouble maker because I don't have to spend my money to build them. And there is not space to write about a couple of 1000 more examples.
I would be pleased to have your friend, Prof. Rowe add his insight. There is also another gentleman referenced in the article along with Jack Hanna, Ted Friend, an animal science professor at Texas A&M University who focuses on determining optimum living environments for animals, that did a study in 2000 on the Clyde Beatty circus in regards to felines and travel. In addition to being smitten with the presenter whom he corresponded with personally, he found no adverse reactions. I would like to ask him one day, what the hell he was looking at, because I could give him a book full of adverse reactions regarding what I have observed. The cat act alternated in numbers presented all through the year, due to "behavioral problems" in the ring yet none of that could be contributed to stress of traveling?
Instead it was patched as the "inbred Hawthorn White Tigers", not in the published paper, but in the personal correspondence.
Wade Burck

Wade G. Burck said...

Darryl,
I spent a great amount of time around ruptures, as any body who had worked with elephants has, and it was always attributed to who ever had them last, as well as the trunk deal nobody wants to touch. I don't know the answer, but I have asked for 34 years, and I have not buried my head in the sand over it. I can only hope someday it will be addressed. Right now there is a male elephant performing with a crooked right front leg, caused by everything in the world, except the front hand stand he does. I love animals as much as I love training them. With my corbett tiger I found that if I jumped her 4 times in a day while I was training her, she became momentarily lame after the 4th attempt. When the act was requested for a 10 day date in which there were 4 shows a day for 3 days, I said I would only do the corbett 3 times in one day, one day a week, you pick the day. Needless to say we didn't do the date and 2 years later there are still two "producers" very angry at me, and I lost money. So what, I did not maim or cripple that extraordinary animal. I am "with and for animals" no more no less.
Wade

Anonymous said...

Wade, it is because of your standards in dealing with the animals in your care, and your deep love for them, that you have my highest respect.
Mary Ann

Anonymous said...

That has been my point as well. What is the cost of a behavior on the animal. Axel took alot of heat over the years about waiting for Hugo to come back to train new behaviors on the herd. Alot of the new things added was easier for forty year old wlwohants to perform. Plus the foward and backward walking long mount was very impressive. I respected Axel for this very much.

Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
Thank you. Can you understand how a financial consideration may influence someones beliefs/thoughts? As would an "ax to grind" study from a radical group?
Wade

Anonymous said...

Wade, yes I see how these things happen. However, in our conversations, correspondence, and blogs, I have never seen any of that coming from you. Ever. And for that also, you have my highest admiration. You are one of the fairest and most honest people that I have ever known.
Mary Ann

Wade G. Burck said...

Dsrryl,
I too respected Axel, you know that. As I respect many. Now we get back to "what is the standard, and what is training." I saw a 14 year old elephant who was not ruptured, forced to do a hind leg walk, so there could be one in each ring, rupture by the time she was 15 and carries the rupture to this day. I think an animals "foundation" start and early training/enviornment is paramount to it's behavior as it matures. My belief in what I have seen in 34 years. If a study was ever done, on elephants that eventually turned bad, or had physical problems as they matured in the last 50 years, the profession would be stunned at where their foundation came from. But don't hold you breath waiting for that study. Research it for your own benefit.
Wade

Raffaele De Ritis said...

Let's think about for a moment to another point, by the spectator point of view. If circus is an art, the aim of everything must be aesthetic.
This "million dollar act" is simply awful.
The music is awful, the presentation is awful. The guy in the ring is the same still wondering why he didn't got the Golden Clown even doing a quad.

I don't know much about how healthy are for this elephant those impressive tricks, and what methods are use to obtain them. But I'm sure that to a profane they appear innatural, useless and intrinsecally violent.
This stuff is decades far away from all the efforts that have done peoples as Rolf Knie and all the others that did of the elephant training a modern and acceptable form of art.

Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
And now you understand how I got so jealous. If I had been born "cute and charming" none of it would have happened, and I could have made up anything/everything and the unknowing/unqualified would have bought it with reverence.
Wade

Wade G. Burck said...

Raffaele,
Brilliant. I am so pleased that this may be the most insightful discussion on what is wrong today. What is the "standard". Is he qualified because his father owns the show? If you can do what ever you want who decides what is good or bad. What about the awarding of "perceived" best of the best awards? I know people revered for their "gentleness" who other trainers shake their head at. That is also how the profane mistake gentleness. I know one of them who put on a resume to qualifications, "assistant to head trainer for 5 years", but neglected to mention that the head trainer was her husband.
I hope your Clown against Clown deal is successful for many years as it may be the only valid circus competition in the world. I can only hope it has nothing to do with pretend qualifications, friends/fans endorsements, or self serving history or excuses for incompetence. In the case of animals more have suffered at the hands of gentle unqualified then a Clyde Beatty. I have enough pictures gathered over the years of how the animals "look and act", plus visually observing for 34 years to make that statement. I also have seen it go in the other direction which is just as harmful to the animal. Profane is not knowing what you are seeing because you have a personal bond/commitment to the one doing it.
Wade

Wade G. Burck said...

I might add for Mary Ann and any others who may not know him, as I only know him by his statements and comments over the years, Mr. Raffaele De Ritis I have found to be one of the fairest, two sides of the story individuals I know, in addition to David Hammerstrom and Henry Edgar. There are a few others, but those are off the top of my head. Don't ever doubt their love for the Circus.
Wade Burck