Two of four cage wagons for the current tiger act. They are parked side by side in the tiger tent and the animals pass through them, into a chute and into the performance arena. The current tiger act will be going to the other show, when the new gold and white tiger act is completed. They acquired cage wagons for my tigers, at my insistence, and the staff pushes them into the tent for practice. Old habit's are hard to break, and I don't like the limitations of cage/beast wagons.
Thursday, June 16, 2011
Circo Atayde(Aguilar) Hermanos
Two of four cage wagons for the current tiger act. They are parked side by side in the tiger tent and the animals pass through them, into a chute and into the performance arena. The current tiger act will be going to the other show, when the new gold and white tiger act is completed. They acquired cage wagons for my tigers, at my insistence, and the staff pushes them into the tent for practice. Old habit's are hard to break, and I don't like the limitations of cage/beast wagons.
Wade,
ReplyDeleteAre these more of the "coca cola" doors you were describing? Is there a double wall between the public and the cats? Are they always allowed that close to the cages?
How is training of the act coming along? What behaviors are you working on?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLroyZzojvg
ReplyDeleteWhat limitations?
ReplyDeletePt2:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfBg_fggFFc&NR=1
Steve,
ReplyDeleteOf not being able to practice with what animal you want with out moving(if you can) animals around to get to them, or putting them all in to get to the one in back.
Wade
So you Yanks really are way behind us Aussies as I posted earlier this year!
ReplyDeleteWe've used trailer cages [never did call them "beast waggons"] for well over 20 years in this country and don't have any of the restrictions that you refer to. My last one is still here at the zoo. It has smaller compartments at the front to isolate animals for travelling, feeding etc. A tunnel runs behind a couple of the smaller compartments so we can restrict an animal for vet work or use the tunnell to move an animal around other animals.
The rear of the trailer is longer so we can load the arena sections, exercise cage, pedestals etc in there for travelling. That way the main weight is over the axles.
When we unload the gear, the cats have access to this area as well.
Each of the compartments has access doors and flaps for servicing, feeding etc.
The exit tunnell ramp can be connected to sliding, guillotine type doors at the rear of the trailer or on either side.
How much more versatile can you get?
From an animal point of view, the height of the trailer is important to allow your cats to stand up on their hind legs and stretch. The top of the interior tunnell also serves as a loafing ledge which is well used by them.
Wade,
ReplyDeleteJust getting bits and pieces of your time in Mexico. Are you training and presenting, or just training a new act.
How long will you be with the show?
Will the route bring you anywhere near San Diego, I might even venture past these drug dealers and properly introduce myself.
Glad to hear your back in the ring.
Vincent/San Diego
Radar,
ReplyDeleteI first heard the name "coca-cola" doors from John Cuneo in 1976. His tiger truck had the most God awful, hard to operate side doors. Approximately two foot wide by 4 foot tall, which were split and pushed up. If the men were not careful, the door would slide down and smash their fingers. When I questioned the insanity of this design, John explained that they were supposed to be wide door's that rolled up, like on a "Coca Cola" truck, but that the trailer builder had mis-read John's diagram and built them tall and narrow. Because the Hawthorn Corp. was going to Mexico at the time, they had no choice but to take the mistake and do the best they could. The problem with John's "alibi" is that he built 5 more tiger trailers with the same type of doors. We have to assume either John had a hard time admitting he made a mistake and made more of them so that it "wasn't" a mistake or ever trailer designer mis-read his diagrams. If you know John Cuneo well, you will know the answer to that question.
There is no "double wall", what ever that is, and each day the animals are pulled out side and washed. That is the photo you are seeing, and because the men are there, close at hand the public is allowed a closer look.
I am not working on any particular behavior, and haven't since 1993. I don't plan what behaviors they will do, I spend a lot of time conditioning them in preparation for what they will eventually do. My personal opinion is that the reason acts stayed the "same" for so many years, to the point where the public became bored, is that the new acts were "planned" instead of spontaneously seeing "something" that could be developed into something different, and then planned from there. Eventually the act will be 12. At the moment I have 8 of various ages from 9 months to 7 months, which have now been integrated together. The pyramid from the working act is put in the middle of the arena, as you see in the picture in a different formation each day to keep their interest in it. They are permitted to "romp/play" for 15 minutes, then it is
dismantled and used as seats with a few other seats and they are taught their seats, which is a "rest" time for them. After they have caught their wind, they are chased off their seats and lunged for 10 minutes to the right and 10 minutes to the left and then let out, and the process is repeated again during the course of the day. I have found if you spend 75% of your time conditioning them physically as well as preparing them mentally, for what will be expected of them, what ever that may be, and 25% of your time actually "drilling" behaviors, after the conditioning process, you are way, way, a head of the game. It is how you develop fast, quick, agile athletes.
Wade
Steve,
ReplyDeleteIf you want to "limit" yourself to a tent, which I don't see as being "ahead of" or progressive, if you want to eliminate buildings/coliseums/theaters. I am having my second go at a tent in 35 years. Still don't like it, except it is easier for training as it is the same old, same old every day. I have used rolling cages, and I have used "cage wagons". In essence the Hawthorn facility was a giant "cage wagon" with large tall with benches cages on either side of a middle chute, with a door leading from each cage into the chute. Given my druthers, I would druther use cage wagons.
Wade
Wade
Vincent,
ReplyDeleteNo presenting for me any more. The "thrill" isn't there any longer. I am training a new act, so the old act can be sent to the second Atayde(Aguilar) unit, and correcting a few lost behaviors and restoring them in the current act. Closest we will get to San Diego is Puerta Vallarda.
Wade
Wade,
ReplyDeleteBest wishes to your return to something you have thoroughly enjoyed for a long time. There's no doubt in my mind that it will be well received when that time comes.
Kind rgards,
Bob
Bobby,
ReplyDeleteI have never left training, and I don't every expect too, regardless of the species. I need that air in my lungs to live. Performing? Forget it. Short of being drug kicking and screaming into the ring, I don't see that ever happening again. :)
Wade
Wade - you don't have to limit yourself to a tent.
ReplyDeleteYou can still give your animals the extra space and enrichment of height in a beast wagon and then gilly them inside at show time in a small cage.
We did that for our very infrequent building shows and I've seen pics of animals in the States [Boettcher's bears?]being gillied inside in smaller cages as well.
Don't you believe that the extra height is beneficial to cats?
Steve,
ReplyDeleteMate, you can't keep isolating one incident out of a thousand as an example of proving your theory. The "you Yanks are really behind us" was so ludicrous it didn't warrant comment.
You mention rolling cages for your "infrequent" building shows to take the animals in and out. What if they weren't "infrequent?" What if they were every day, year in and year out? The cost of hauling the extra equipment would have crippled you mate. Again, to illustrate different circumstances, this is the 3rd tent I have been in since joining the circus in 1974. The first being 2 months on Miller-Johnson/Vargas in 1975 and later 9 months on Circus Vargas in 1981. My building dates have been a lot more then "infrequent".
Ursula's beast wagon or what ever you chose to call it in Australia which she brought with her, was so inadequate that Ringling was required to build her a new one, given the "water requirements" of the bears. The one she arrived with had it's wheels and undercarriage removed and it was set on blocks in Venice, attached to the out door arena, should any one want to use it. Nobody did, ever. The only time it was ever used was for Charly's tigers after his retirement, as temporary housing, as I needed his rolling cages. The first "beast wagon" Ringling built for tigers was for myself and GGW's tigers in 1991, with rolling cages to take the animals into the show building, which is the same system they use today, with improvements to the "beast wagons." That's Ringling Steve. No other show could afford the cost of hauling a "beast wagon" as well as another tractor/trailer for hauling rolling cages, unless as you say you are "infrequent" Nobody, here or in Australia, or Europe or any place. Rolling cages are nothing more then a beast wagon cut into separate units, instead of them all being welded together. Nothing more. I have found nothing to prove to me that a feline benefits from vertical height. No more then a horse does, or an elephant. I observed tigers at Hawthorn whom lived in 10 foot high cages for over 20 years, and with the exception of using the bench to escape animals on the floor, or to go to not be bothered by daily husbandry did not benefit from the height one iota. Primates, birds, and smaller arboreal carnivores yes. Tigers, lions, leopards, Jaguars, no. How much time do these animals actually spend in trees or "up high" in a natural environment, Steve? A Snow leopard lives in the mountains, because that is what is available to him. Not because he want's, need's or craves "up high." The rolling cages that the show here has provided for me are 6 foot from floor to ceiling, a foot and a half taller then I have used for the majority of my career. Should I see one of the tigers up there in the atmosphere, I will surely adjust my way of thinking and what I have observed over half a life time.
Quite some time back I asked for the exact dimensions of your wagons, length, width of complete wagon and also length, width of the individual units. You were going to get back to me, but never did. Now see's like a good time. Send height with you would like, as it seem's to have relevancy.
Wade
Jeez mate - you're getting a bit tetchy!!! Is Mr Aguilar working you too hard? LOL
ReplyDeleteFor someone who allegedly is striving for better conditions for performing animals you are strangely reluctant to accept that there just might be a better way to keep our big cats.
"You Yanks are really behind us" is a valid comment when it comes to cage sizes.
I recently saw an article boasting of Hoover's cages being 5' by 3'6" by 3' high per cat. That was 10 years ago. Since the early 80's [ 30 years ago] we have had a minimum cage size of 40' by 8' by 8' high for 4 cats.
You are fudging the issue when you try to denigrate the height requirements. I am not saying that terrestrial cats necessarily want to go "up high", although they certainly ALL use the elevated ledges frequently for the purposes that you acknowleged. What they do NEED the height for is to be able to stand on their rear legs and vertically stretch. They can't do that in a 3' high box. Height sure does have "relevancy" for them.
When it comes to animal welfare, your argument about what a show can "afford" is not relevant. If they can't afford proper accomodation AND get their animals into the venue then they need to find other venues or get out of animal acts.
Buildings are not the be all and end all of circus venues. Tents are pretty damn good too and have stood the test of time - irrespective of whether WGB has worked in them or not. They give progressive trainers such as Mr Cainan the ability to get their cats out of rolling cages and into an exercise cage. Not only enriching for the animals due to different substrates at each location etc, but a powerful public perception tool as well.
Think about it!
Stay calm.
Will have to disagree with you Wade on the leopards, most of the leopards I've known like up, be it on den boxes or shelves. They seemed to prefer being above when they had the chance. The tigers, lions and jags were more ground orientated.
ReplyDeleteJust my take on that...
Catman Don,
ReplyDelete"Seem to prefer to be alone," yet on this show there are a leopard pair, who if separated are very unhappy, as well as a pair of Jaguars. The leopards have a "bench" in their cage and only the female uses it. The Jaguars have "bench" and neither ever uses it. Does an animal use it only because it is there? And if it is not, could care less?
Wade
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI'm fine, and I realize I can't base a thought on what is good for me and my world, to damned with the rest. That's way to left wing for me. Some would suggest a tent is "antiquated and outdated," if nothing else as a rule much, much cheaper to set up then to rent a coliseum or arena. I have come to understand that the only reason "height" has become such a "big deal" is that it was already there, and could be used as a false example of "progressiveness". It the the law changed today, and the height requirement was mandated to 3 foot taller then a normal transport folks would scream like a gutted dog, and height would not be an issue.
Where are the transport measurements that have been asked for twice, with measurements of individual units? Dave Hoover??? Jeez, that was a deep reach to the bottom, Steve. What's this 3 foot deal?
"Progressive Casey," what are your cage measurements? What does the government of the United States of America require?
I do care about the care of animals, Steve. That's why I am vigilant of "false claims" based on nothing but what looks good for an individual. I have read a number of stories about members of the Australian Circus Association finding "loop holes" in which to continue operating or to make a date. Was that the "progressiveness, care, and concern you were referencing?"
Wade
Mate - re your response to Catman Don, I think the point is that the animals have a bit of a choice. If they want to use a ledge fine, if not, then they don't have to.
ReplyDeleteI know that you care deeply about animal welfare which is why I asked you to consider if there might be a better way than the rolling cages that are so low that an animal can't have a vertical stretch if it wants to.
And yes, from photos that I have seen, Casey is progressive inasmuch as his cats get out of their rolling cages during the day into an exercise cage where they can experience different substrates, can experience direct sunlight and they can have a stretch if they want to. There are other cat acts in the States where the animals don't get that opportunity.
The cost of labor for setting up and transporting a large tent and dressing the interior, nevermind the original purchase price of a good tent and seating, far exceeds the cost of renting an arena, which is why Soleil and Big Apple are doing away with their tents on some dates.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt is far more complex then that. When they do away with their tent's, where do they do their performances?
Wade
Steve,
ReplyDeleteHawthorn was "progressively" setting up an exercise cage in 1976, as well as many other folks, particularly those that were lucky enough to work in parks. My son does it to this day, as well as many others. I would prefer performing animals have heat in the winter, instead of a pile of hay, and air in the summer instead of an awning over head as shade. In all the years of turning animal loose in the exercise cage, I saw a "stretch vertically" at most a half dozen times. In the tall, tall cages at the winter quarters, I saw the "vertical" height used only at feeding time by select individuals, only for the purpose of looking for the meat to come. Once they saw it through the meat room door, they no longer when up to locate it. I think "vertical" has been given way too much importance, because it was already there, and it was a "grandstand" that didn't cost a penny. I would suggest that "progressively" the "cage wagons" should be made 10 foot wider, and two foot lower, or even more "progressively" the all important "vertical" should be made 20 foot high, worldwide. The height limit for trailers in the Colonies is 13'6". What is the restriction in Australia. What are the dimensions of a single cage wagon unit, width X length and how many individual unit's are in a cage wagon? "Progressively", how much larger then 8' X 8' are those individual units? How often, and how much is the roof of a trailer in Australia raised to give the animals the "sacred vertical space?" Or is there a "standard" trailer that amazingly comes with the height requirements? Or "progressively" has the "agreed" upon height, as it were?
Wade
Wade - you seem to be "progressively" taking this discussion more and more personally. It was not my intention to upset you - I had hoped that we might have a constructive discussion on the subject. So I'll just make a couple of comments on your last post then I'll butt out.
ReplyDeleteHow do trainers set up excercise cages in buildings when space is so limited that the line of rolling cages have to be T shaped or L shaped? I have seen many, many pics of rolling cages set up in buildings but have yet to see an excercise cage attached to them.
The issue of heat in the winter or air in the summer is a non-issue. Animals adapt. Zoos have proven that it is healthier for animals [in most cases] to have natural air, be it hot or cold, rather than conditioned air. My experience is the same - your preference is different. Let's leave it at that.
You have only seen cats enjoy a bit of extra space by having a vertical stretch only half a dozen times in your career - I couldn't count the number of times that mine have used a bit of height to stretch verically. Let's leave it at that.
You've lost me when you talk about 20' of vertical space. I've got no idea what that's all about. I have been talking about a circus situation.
I've already told you that, in Australia, our trailer cages measure 40' by 8' by 8' high for 4 cats. To this we must add an exercise cage. The current minimum spatial requirement for an exercise cage is 20 square metres.
8' high is plenty for the vertical stretching that our cats like to do in the trailer cage, or to provide a ledge for them use if they choose to. As I said earlier, they don't have those choices in Hoover's 3' high cages or even in your 4'6" high cages.
Your last couple of sentences were so sarcy that I'll let them pass.
Take it easy.
The legal width (exterior) of a trailer in the states is eight feet - with the framing, the interior is 7'6" maximum. With the framing of the door plus clearance, the maximum width that could fit through a semi trailer door is seven feet, so there is no way there are any eight foot wide cages in the states.
ReplyDelete""Seem to prefer to be alone,"?" Have you been in Mexico so long you can't read the English any more? Guess above and alone can look alike at times... :-D
ReplyDeleteOn that subject of being alone, I have noticed like you that even the so-called solitary animals seem to enjoy the company of others when in captivity. I prefer seeing animals in at least pairs so they get some social interaction, especially in a zoo setting where they may not get any other type of interaction. When I was traveling and doing the magic acts most of the cats really seemed to enjoy getting out and around new places and people.
What the hell is going on here?!?!
ReplyDeleteI will answer about cage size, but first.
1. I do not believe anyone has ever proven a cage bigger then what is needed for normal postural adjustments has any benefit to the physical or mental well bring of the animal. If the animal is given proper exercise, the cage it is transported in is really irrelevant.
2. I have been around both wagon/rolling cages. Unless you are on a tent show, rolling cages are the best. Even on a tent show a beast wagon has limitations.
3. I have noted many things that seem to occur with beast wagons in the style Steve is referring to.
First is that they become more of a flatbed to transport other equipment for the show..i.e..."We need to load these lights some where mate"..."throw it on the back of the cage trailer" or....in even worse scenarios....other animals....So Steve...before you ever use the "You Yanks are really behind us" remark, please know that in the 30 years I have been on American circus I have never heard of anyone hauling ponies in a cage wagon here or even the same truck as rolling cages. Certainly never had an incident like the one over there on L Brothers. Not even on Gopher Bros or Sterling & Reid. So no mate, we are not really behind.
My rolling cages are 6ft by 8ft.
USDA law reads animals must be able to make natural postural adjustments. Anonymous is correct, It is impossible to haul an honest 8 by 8 cage in a trailer. most 8 by 8's are actually 7'9" by 8', but really you are splitting hairs over 3 inches???
Catman,
ReplyDelete'so-called solitary animals "SEEM" to enjoy the company of others when in captivity,' would SEEM to suggest that some don't? Yet we appear to be suggesting something, "height" that is beneficial for ALL. Or is my English skewed?
'"MOST" of the cats really seemed to enjoy getting out and around new places.' Did anybody suggest MOST didn't enjoy getting out? More accurately, less human, the activity and changing environment is what interest's them more so then "getting out." I disagree, and don't think it has any thing to do with getting around "new people." If your animals are tired of you, and aren't stimulated by your presence, you have failed them.
Wade
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteNo way, right? Much, much closer to 8 ft. then 7 ft. Do you need some instruction in framing a trailer, or will you be able to muck it up long enough, that you learn how?
Wade
Steve,
ReplyDeleteWhere do you keep getting this "Hoover's 3' high cages" crap??? Hoover was America's Shulz, but he is gone now. I have never in my life seen anything 3 ft. high with the exception of a small dog airline carrier???? Almost every night, with rare exception the arena is set up. It is a simple matter to push the cages up, and exercise up until one hour before the first show. Very often there are many hours between shows, and in the evening after for the same purpose, should the animal need it. Most all babies do, adults not so much. That's a fact mate. Not a big deal to take pictures of animals playing in the cage, most of us Yanks have done it for years, and it isn't a big deal. Not as it seems to be in Australia and Europe where it is all the rage to photograph your "new" habitats. You need to hear Marcan's horror's of seeing up an exercise cage in the 2000's on Ringling. Large transport wagons, modeled after the first one's for me and GGW's cats in 1991, exercise/practice cage set up, or the option of moving them into rolling cages and taking them into the building and the show arena. If I understand it, 4 cats separated for feeding, isolation, behavioral issues would be living in a 10 ft. X 8 ft. cage? I guess you blokes are able to get a true 8 ft. You are posturing and patting your self on the back for 2 ft. Steve? Actually it appears you have made it a rectangle shape with the additional, sacred 2 ft. Is rectangle the best shape for an animal enclosure?
Can anybody find where we have been given these "measurements" before? I seem to have missed it.
'I would suggest that "progressively" the "cage wagons" should be made 10 foot wider, and two foot lower, or even more "progressively" the all important "vertical" should be made 20 foot high, worldwide. The height limit for trailers in the Colonies is 13'6". What is the restriction in Australia. What are the dimensions of a single cage wagon unit, width X length and how many individual unit's are in a cage wagon? "Progressively", how much larger then 8' X 8' are those individual units? How often, and how much is the roof of a trailer in Australia raised to give the animals the "sacred vertical space?" Or is there a "standard" trailer that amazingly comes with the height requirements? Or "progressively" has the "agreed" upon height, as it were?'
What is scary about this? The fact that you may have to spend money to make them wider, instead of hanging a "progressive banner" on the "free, comes with the trailer" minimally used height? There is not a cat act in the United States that does not have access to the arena(40' not a paltry 20') for "exercise" any time it is deemed necessary. That's fact's Steve.
Wade
"Can anybody find where we have been given these "measurements" before? I seem to have missed it."
ReplyDelete=====================================
Genesis.
(Meters and Feet are for sinners.
All animal enclosures should be measured in cubits.)
You've lost me big time.
ReplyDeleteHoover's 3' high cages are well publicised.
Who said anything about 4 cats living in 10' by 8'? In Australia it's 40' by 8' plus exercise cage. You have "missed it".
The word that I used was "sarcy" [short for sarcastic] - not "scary". And I was referring to your last paragraph, not your last two.
And, finally, I've learned something when you say that "There is not a cat act in the United States that does not have access to the arena (40' not a paltry 20') for exercise any time it is deemed necessary."
I wasn't aware of that. Thank you Wade. Do many cat acts deem exercise necessary?
Casey - glad you got here!
ReplyDeleteDon't get offended - the "You Yanks are really are way behind us Aussies!" quote was posted with an exclamation mark. It was said tongue in cheek but got a much bigger bite from Wade than expected!
1 Cage sizes that I have been talking about are living cages, not transport cages. Transport cage sizes really should be as small as possible to minimise the risk of injury during transport. Living cages obviously need to cater for the biological needs of the inhabitants. One of these needs is space to move around a bit in and have a stretch when they choose to. It has been my impression that, in the US, most animals only get out of their rolling cages at showtime. I was under the impression that very few acts set up an exercise area for them to use during the day such as you do. Wade has now painted a far rosier picture for me.
2 At the end of the day, trailer cage versus rolling cage will come down to the preference of the individual operator. Wade prefers rolling cages, I have hardly ever needed their particular advantages so I stick with trailer cages.
3 What you are saying is true. The trailers are great for carrying other gear in the back along with the arena sections and seats. Circus producers love 'em because they can also load in there some nearby equipment on the lot such as lighting, fencing etc. Trainers love 'em also because they can load a bit of extra household gear in there to. Hoses and power leads are common, particularly when they are too wet or dirty to carry in the house trailer. I even know one family who transported their washing machine from town to town in the cage trailer! But, I suppose that a bit of extra gear would be transported under, or on top of, the rolling cages in your system - wouldn't it?
My last two trailer cages were designed strictly for the cats and their associated gear - not other animals. My first one was a drop-deck trailer and, on the road, carried lions up front, arena and props in the middle, and ponies and monkies at the rear. In over 10 years we never had a problem. I guess it might have something to do with the operator?
I am sure glad anonymous is not a dot inspector because the legal semi trailer in the us is 102 inches or eight feet six inches so yes there could be eight foot wide cages. Make sure you Check your facts before you post something so you don't look foolish.
ReplyDeleteAs a side note to the inspectors post my semi trailer is 102 inches wide and all my transport cages are seven feet nine inches wide have been for the years I have been working cats so the statement that the cages can't be over seven feet is strike two. You should quit while you are ahead and Mabey hit the Internet for a little research. Once you are educated on the facts then come back to the adult table .
ReplyDeleteSteve,
ReplyDeleteI know one nighters are almost as rare as buildings there. But in the event, the exercise pen goes up as well?
If you have lions in front, arena and props, and monkeys and ponies all on same trailer, must be a 90 ft trailer to give cats 40' by 8'. How are these beast wagons cleaned? Cats in or out? Daily?
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI didn't take a big bite of anything. The statement was so insane and absurd it could only be interpreted as at least "tongue in cheek. I think you have listened to too many rumor's, or heard what you wanted to hear and then spoke it as fact. That is what I was addressing. I have never hauled anything under the cages other then the ramps used to unload them. Any thing over head is on specially built racks not on the cages. In an emergency, it would seem to make it hard to unload them fast, with "equipment" on top, wouldn't you think? I didn't realize either that Australia used two different cages for an act either? Your "cage wagons" seem to be more of what we would call a "prop trailer" with additional space left over used to place a few animals in a "progressive" husbandry situation. I suppose you separate the animals for feeding, or for social reasons at times. A 40' trailer 8' wide(for 4 animals) divided into 4 equal sections/units I would suspect is 4 units totaling 10' X 8' as opposed to a "non progressive" 8' X 8'(give or take 2/3 inches) American cage. "Progressive Casey has stated his cage sizes. Folks can decide if Australia's 2' of "free space, comes with the trailer" is state of the art and worthy of chest pounding paper. In a one ring tent where the ring is needed for other things at times, you may not have realized in a three ring circus there are two other rings in which to do other things, and the arena is traditionally set up after the last show, and is available for use from then until the next day at the start of the first show.
What authority "well documented" 3' cages used by Hoover or anyone. As stated, Dave Hoover was America's Fritz Schulz. The senile old uncle whom when he appeared at family reunions, folks nodded to, but for the most part tried to ignore. So get off of Hoover, he was what he was. A small part of circus, nothing of any importance or consequence. Surely not your insistence as the standard or the norm.
Again, I begin setting up an "exercise cage"(regulation size 38' section arena) in 1976. Until then the smaller show I was with only afforded the arena for exercise. Hawthorn had the net cage for performance, but hauled an additional net section cage for the occasional out door date, or in a building with a ceiling too low to raise the net cage. Used either/or at every opportunity. Yes exercise is very important for young animals, not so much for adults, and that's why the arena's have been used since the day I started. That's what I think of exercise. The great Gerd Semeonite was quoted in 2001, upon looking at someone elses(English, not Australian Steve) much larger then 20 meters exercise cage, "I wish I had done something like this years ago. I truly regret we didn't know any better, and we didn't realize it was necessary." That's what Gerd thinks of exercise, Steve. That's progressive. Not how much additional equipment unrelated to the animals, can be loaded into their transport wagon.
Wade
Casey,
ReplyDeleteWhat was the incident involving lions and ponies on L Bros. that you mention? Is L Bros. Lennon Bros? They are the folks I alluded to earlier that use a lot of loop holes to skirt regulations. Quite a lot of press on the internet on their actions. They are a member in good standing of a much "touted" Australian circus governing/ethics/standards organization, which is what has made their "loopholeing" seem so odd, given the touted "self regulation".
Wade
Adam,
ReplyDeleteKudos for coming to the debate with your pockets full of facts. The "adult table!!!" Where did you get that? LOL I like it, may I used it from time to time. :)
I love you and be safe,
Pops
Casey - I can't remember when the last circus with animals did a shift and show one nighter!
ReplyDeleteThe Regulations state that the TRANSPORT compartment for each big cat must provide enough space for the animal to assume a normal standing posture, lie down fully stretched and turn around without physical contact with neighbouring animals.
Animals must not remain in TRANSPORT cages for more than two days without exercise.
Big cat HOUSING trailers must contain platforms that are raised off the floor.
They must also have a demountable enclosure annexed to the trailer. They must have access to this for a minimum of six hours a day. They must have access to the ground for a natural substrate. They must have access to sunlight and shade from direct sunlight. In this demountable enclosure the minimum floor space for one animal is 20 square metres with an additional area of 10 square metres for every additional big cat.
In my multi purpose first trailer, I had 4 TRANSPORT compartments each 4' wide for a total of 16' Then, in the middle I carried the arena and props in 12'. That left me with 12' at the rear for the ponies. The unloading ramp was the full 8' width of the trailer. Once the ponies had been unloaded this was raised to trailer floor height and mesh walls and a mesh roof were swung out and all pinned together. This then became the monkey cage. The monks travelled in cages, like a tunnel, under the roof at the rear of the pony compartment. They could access the outdoor cage from a door at the top of the rear of the trailer.
When the ponies were unloaded, the monkeys let out and the middle of the trailer unloaded, the cats had access to the whole 40' length of the trailer plus the demountable exercise enclosure.
We moved away from this trailer to species specific trailers only when we eventually had too many cats, ponies and monkeys for the multi purpose trailer. We never had any safety issues with travelling those different species in the one vehicle.
The trailer cage on our show was cleaned out daily by scraping and sweeping. Sometimes several times a day. It was hosed out regularly as required and as the weather permitted. Usually the cats were out by the time this was done. However, it could be scraped and/or hosed with the cats in the trailer.
I can't speak for the procedures on other shows.
Can somebody please provide the documentation mentioned that states 3 foot high cages were at one time used in the United States for lions and tigers? Thank you, it seems impossible for any thing other then small felines.
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