A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
Radar, Yes, not unlike Alligator farms in the United States. It is so odd to me that these types of facilities are for the most part acceptable and Alligator Farming is a fairly stable industry. Have you seen the new show out about legal alligator hunting/harvesting in Louisiana? Each week the show opens with a "warning" that there may be things seen on the show that some may find offensive, but it is a part of hundred's of years of tradition and culture for these swamp people, so if you can't suck it up and enjoy change to a different channel. The saddest statement of how society has tanked is that they have to justify what is being filmed. Worse is that they have to offer a warning to some sad sack so they don't get offended. What is wonderful it that the warning basically say's here's what it is. If you don't like it, tough shit. It is what it is. It gives me hope that society still has a chance of getting back on track, and letting every bleeding heart minority make their own Private Idaho to live in. Why not elephant breeding farms for product like leather and foot stools, and ivory. Why not rhino breeding farms for product like horn's? Why is it acceptable to raise and eat crocodile/alligators, but not elephants, or tigers for fur, bones for wine or medicinal purposes?
Radar - these farms are used to grow crocodiles commercially, principally for leather. Australian croc skin leather is the best in the world - naturally!!! However, no part of the animal is wasted, the meat is used and even the bones.
Prior to the advent of croc farms in this country, shooters had decimated croc numbers to the point where a reptile that had lived here for about 240 million years was on the point of localised extinction. Crocodile skin leather is that valuable.
Farming has saved the Estuarine Crocodile in this country. Nowadays there are tens of thousands of crocs in farms. People can buy and wear crocodile skin products with a completely clear conscience. The wild population has increased dramatically and, in the event that it crashes for some reason, the wild could be restocked with crocs from farms. Crocs in the farms have also been used for research and so our knowledge of these animals and what makes them tick has increased dramatically as a result of croc farming.
Wade's thoughts about sustainable use farming of exotic animals echoes the thoughts that I put forward on Casey's blog the other day in answer to some poor misguided anonymouse. Thanks Wade.
Steve, Come on, you are kidding right mate? Australian croc leather will never surpass American alligator leather, both for durability and beauty. The legal harvesting of the Louisiana alligator is an extremely successful management program, providing incredible revenue, used for the further protection/conservation of wild populations, and setting up and maintaining viable populations. Wade Wade
Steve's comment on sustainable farming (on Casey's blog) of exotic animals related to tigers, which is already being done in China with tragic result. In addition there is the farming of exotic cats and hooved animals in South Africa for hunting ranches - you can be the judge of the ethics of that venture. The farming of crocodiles and pythons for the leather trade seems to be the least bothersome of the exotic farming, though I'm surprised it hasn't recieved more attention from the ar movement than it has. In the US, the eggs are harvested from wild nests and raised in farms, along with legal hunts In Asia and South America it is mostly caiman that is farmed (but the skin is sometimes sold as nile crocodile), but because of their aggrssion towards each other as they mature, are usually culled as juviniles.
Wade - I would never kid a man who personifies America's commitment to the "Southern solution"!! LOL
Alligator leather might be OK for you Yanks but Estuarine Crocodile leather from Australia is a far superior product which is why the world's major fashion houses pay much more money for it.
Anonymouse - if you want to conserve something, make it valuable.
Farming has saved the crocodile in this country - it has the potential to save other species in other countries as well. I'm not saying that it is being done right in some places at the moment but is certainly worth a try. All the millions of dollars spent on conventional approaches haven't saved one single tiger - the world's wild population continues to free fall.
For me, canned hunts depend on the size of the "can". Shooting a cat in a 20' cage isn't hunting. Shooting the same animal in a 500 acre paddock and paying the host country a swag of Yankee dollars to do so could well have positive flow ons for conservation.
And the reason that the ar fanatics haven't targeted reptile farming is because, to the general public, reptiles aren't cute and cuddly. There is no money in reptiles for the libbers.
Anonymous, Is it regulated in China? There you go. If it is agriculture, and treated as such (meaning everyone from the farmer up to Uncle Sam gets there piece of the action) it will generally be legit. I will point to the farms raising exotic deer and antelope here in the USA as an example. And I mean as a whole industry, not one individual you will cite as being a detriment to animal welfare. As far as being surprised the AR aren't crawling up the reptile business' hind end. Get a clue bub....No ONE WANTS TO SNUGGLE WITH A MOJAVE RATTLER OR A NILE MONITOR the just don't bring in the big donations buddy. Even a baby Coral snake....is still a snake....haha
So, Casey would be in favor of regulated tiger farms for Asian medicine. That's startling. Although from what I've seen, the living conditions of tigers in chinese facilities are equal, or better than those in some circuses. I guess the distance from useless circus acts and useless medicine isn't that far apart after all. The world wouldn't notice the dissapearance of either.
Before you embarass yourself any further, take a trip to Asia. You'll find that the Asians don't need to farm Caiman because their local product is superior.
Anonymous, Yes, I have no problem with people using LEGALLY farmed tiger parts as medicine. Just because I don't think it works doesn't give me the right to tell someone it doesn't. Cause, honestly, I really don't know. I am merely a guy who trains animal acts (All of which have been quite useful to me so that shoe must have been for someone else) I am not a doctor.
Steve, I have just been sitting by "listening" and I have to admit, amazingly you have actually made a lot of sense, which is unusual. LOL I despise the concept of a "canned hunt", probably because I had never considered the "size of the can." A large thousands of acres hunting preserve in Texas, must not be confused with an acre surrounded by hog wire with some unfortunate animal released into it. I still have a problem, and hope that man kind is smart enough to some day see the idiocy of the concept of eating beef, chickens, pigs, sheep, goats, ostrich, deer, elk, etc. etc as being "all right", yet cry and scream to the heavens at the concept of eating a horse???? I have known some great horses, that I will revere in my heart forever. I have also know a few that I which I could have tried with a nice meat rub. Wade
Radar, You are kidding, right? A canned hunt and a bullfight, are as different as night and day. A canned hunt is conducted by a week end "hobbyist" while a bullfight is conducted by a highly skilled professional. Very much like the difference between you doing a tiger act or myself doing a tiger act. Plus, I DON'T AGITATE EASILY, PAL!!!!
It could still be argued easily that the inexperienced putz shooting from a Land Rover once is more human then the skill Toreador fighting a bull.
Just saying...
I am not against either. And I don't view them as the same. But in both "sports" (Using that word very broadly for canned hunts) the end result is the same. Someone tries to kill an animal in a pen.
Casey, Don't you and Radar have anything better to do, then to try to compare a rock to a piece of marble? Are tigers in a cage getting in fight's the same thing as dog fighting. Why not? Because in one they bet on the winner, and in the other they don't? Wade
Steve, before you embarass yourself any further, you might wish to do a little research to discover that the principal species bred for their skins in Singapore are caiman, prosus and tomistoma. By the way, you fellas having any problems with those native camels over there, mate? Now, don't tell me they actually BROUGHT a non native species to Australia. You must be fooling.
Wade, I was not talking about bullfighting. I was using the bullfighting arena as a measure for the size of a "can" you approve of disprove. Guy goes in (whether he pays money or not) to kill an animal in an enclosed space.
It seems a vast generalization that the "weekend enthusiasts" are the canned hunters and "highly skilled professionals" are the bullfighters. Is it not the same as the circus industry where there are both the best and the worst in the two operations?
You mention the difference between you and I doing tiger acts. When the bullfighter is first learning, does he practice on a bull first? How many does he kill in practice before he is allowed to do a show? Is it regulated in Spain? What about Mexico?
Tiger fights and dogfighting is more different than the betting, no? Who trains their tigers to fight each other? We do everything we can to keep them from fighting.
Radar, It is not a "vast generalization." The "professional" spends thousands of dollars flying to Africa, Asia, or a large Texas type hunting ranch, pays for an expensive hunting permit in either Africa, Asia, etc. that he has been lucky enough to win the opportunity to purchase through a lottery system. The "weekend" enthusiast want's to say he shot, say a lion but as a rule can't afford the cost of doing it on a safari. The "canned hunts" offered him that opportunity. Sadly, in his Private Idaho that put's him right up there with the big boys. A novice bull fighter doesn't "practice" with fighting bulls. Not only are they far to dangerous, but more importantly a "fighting bull" is only fought once, and then killed, as he very quickly learns how to counter the matador's and becomes too dangerous, or say's forget it, I am not fighting. If a bull was fought over and over, and had damage inflicted to it, over and over again, I would hate it with a passion, as I had any thing where an animal is hurt over and over again. 15 minutes to prove his macho as a fighting bull, and it is over forever. If he is incredible, and performs above and beyond, he is retired to stud and is never touch again. The "novice" practices his movements on yearling substandard bulls(poor conformation, bad horn growth, etc) and often heifer's destined for the slaughter plant. They don't live to one day participate in the ring. They aren't good enough. Very little if any damage is done to the young bull/heifers. The purpose is to only teach the novice matador to read the movement of a bovine, and to practice on how to get it to lower it's head and neck for the kill one day. He is not allowed to ruin or damage a "professional fighting bull." When he goes in the ring for his first fight it's the real deal. Being allowed to "practice" on an animal can and does do it mental damage. As to your question about regulation, yes it is in both Spain and Mexico. Spain has become more stringent then Mexico as animal regulations are different in the US, Australia, Europe and a number of top matador/rejoneadors have chosen to go to Mexico as there is an opportunity for more corriedas.
Dogs are bred to fight as tigers are encouraged to be noisy and give the appearance of aggression. Do fights not occur because some one is in the ring with them, even though we do every thing to prevent it? A dog fighter doesn't want his dog to get hurt, and does everything in advance to prevent it. Do injuries occur when tigers fight. Do injuries occur when dogs fight? Does the dog fighter not pull the dog's apart at a certain point?
Mouse - go have a look at the place rather than live your life through the internet. You will see that Crocodylus porosus is the commercial species Sure, you can see other species at the park but they are not harvested. Do you seriously believe that tomistoma would be harvested when there are only a couple of thousand left in the world?
And don't even start on camels, sunshine. You are going off topic and way out of your league on that subject.
It is becoming increasingly obvious why you feel the need to hide behind anonymity.
Steve, Great stuff, and I agree Anonymouse doesn't seem to have a clue. Just another one to take half a fact, and twist the rest into the shape they see fit.
PS Radar, you need to study, really study the history of bullfighting, the good and the bad(yes, there were a few folks years ago, like what we have in the circus). Basing thought pattern on supposition, innuendo, and hear say is mantra of the ar.
The dogs are put in the ring to fight. The tigers, as you state, are encouraged to "be noisy and give the appearance of aggression." They are not put in the ring to fight; they are put in the ring to perform tricks.
Radar, Against our best intentions, they do get in fights and they do injure each other. Often quite severely. Is motive, they intend to, we don't intend to what makes it different if the result is the same?
Are these crocodile farms used to harvest parts like skin, etc?
ReplyDeleteRadar,
ReplyDeleteYes, not unlike Alligator farms in the United States. It is so odd to me that these types of facilities are for the most part acceptable and Alligator Farming is a fairly stable industry. Have you seen the new show out about legal alligator hunting/harvesting in Louisiana? Each week the show opens with a "warning" that there may be things seen on the show that some may find offensive, but it is a part of hundred's of years of tradition and culture for these swamp people, so if you can't suck it up and enjoy change to a different channel. The saddest statement of how society has tanked is that they have to justify what is being filmed. Worse is that they have to offer a warning to some sad sack so they don't get offended. What is wonderful it that the warning basically say's here's what it is. If you don't like it, tough shit. It is what it is. It gives me hope that society still has a chance of getting back on track, and letting every bleeding heart minority make their own Private Idaho to live in.
Why not elephant breeding farms for product like leather and foot stools, and ivory. Why not rhino breeding farms for product like horn's? Why is it acceptable to raise and eat crocodile/alligators, but not elephants, or tigers for fur, bones for wine or medicinal purposes?
Wade
Wade
Radar - these farms are used to grow crocodiles commercially, principally for leather. Australian croc skin leather is the best in the world - naturally!!! However, no part of the animal is wasted, the meat is used and even the bones.
ReplyDeletePrior to the advent of croc farms in this country, shooters had decimated croc numbers to the point where a reptile that had lived here for about 240 million years was on the point of localised extinction. Crocodile skin leather is that valuable.
Farming has saved the Estuarine Crocodile in this country. Nowadays there are tens of thousands of crocs in farms. People can buy and wear crocodile skin products with a completely clear conscience. The wild population has increased dramatically and, in the event that it crashes for some reason, the wild could be restocked with crocs from farms. Crocs in the farms have also been used for research and so our knowledge of these animals and what makes them tick has increased dramatically as a result of croc farming.
Wade's thoughts about sustainable use farming of exotic animals echoes the thoughts that I put forward on Casey's blog the other day in answer to some poor misguided anonymouse. Thanks Wade.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteCome on, you are kidding right mate? Australian croc leather will never surpass American alligator leather, both for durability and beauty. The legal harvesting of the Louisiana alligator is an extremely successful management program, providing incredible revenue, used for the further protection/conservation of wild populations, and setting up and maintaining viable populations.
Wade
Wade
Steve's comment on sustainable farming (on Casey's blog) of exotic animals related to tigers, which is already being done in China with tragic result. In addition there is the farming of exotic cats and hooved animals in South Africa for hunting ranches - you can be the judge of the ethics of that venture.
ReplyDeleteThe farming of crocodiles and pythons for the leather trade seems to be the least bothersome of the exotic farming, though I'm surprised it hasn't recieved more attention from the ar movement than it has.
In the US, the eggs are harvested from wild nests and raised in farms, along with legal hunts In Asia and South America it is mostly caiman that is farmed (but the skin is sometimes sold as nile crocodile), but because of their aggrssion towards each other as they mature, are usually culled as juviniles.
Wade - I would never kid a man who personifies America's commitment to the "Southern solution"!! LOL
ReplyDeleteAlligator leather might be OK for you Yanks but Estuarine Crocodile leather from Australia is a far superior product which is why the world's major fashion houses pay much more money for it.
Anonymouse - if you want to conserve something, make it valuable.
Farming has saved the crocodile in this country - it has the potential to save other species in other countries as well. I'm not saying that it is being done right in some places at the moment but is certainly worth a try. All the millions of dollars spent on conventional approaches haven't saved one single tiger - the world's wild population continues to free fall.
For me, canned hunts depend on the size of the "can". Shooting a cat in a 20' cage isn't hunting. Shooting the same animal in a 500 acre paddock and paying the host country a swag of Yankee dollars to do so could well have positive flow ons for conservation.
And the reason that the ar fanatics haven't targeted reptile farming is because, to the general public, reptiles aren't cute and cuddly. There is no money in reptiles for the libbers.
Anonymouse - there are no Caiman in Asia.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteIs it regulated in China? There you go. If it is agriculture, and treated as such (meaning everyone from the farmer up to Uncle Sam gets there piece of the action) it will generally be legit. I will point to the farms raising exotic deer and antelope here in the USA as an example. And I mean as a whole industry, not one individual you will cite as being a detriment to animal welfare. As far as being surprised the AR aren't crawling up the reptile business' hind end. Get a clue bub....No ONE WANTS TO SNUGGLE WITH A MOJAVE RATTLER OR A NILE MONITOR the just don't bring in the big donations buddy. Even a baby Coral snake....is still a snake....haha
There are no caiman in Asia, the way there are no tigers in Australia - They ARE BROUGHT THERE expressly for breeding farms - DUH!
ReplyDeleteThere are no caiman in Asia like there are no tigers in Australia - THERE WERE BROUGHT THERE to farm - DUH!
ReplyDeleteSo, Casey would be in favor of regulated tiger farms for Asian medicine. That's startling. Although from what I've seen, the living conditions of tigers in chinese facilities are equal, or better than those in some circuses. I guess the distance from useless circus acts and useless medicine isn't that far apart after all. The world wouldn't notice the dissapearance of either.
ReplyDeleteGot the hiccups, anonymouse?
ReplyDeleteBefore you embarass yourself any further, take a trip to Asia. You'll find that the Asians don't need to farm Caiman because their local product is superior.
Anonymouse - with regard to the sustainable use of exotic animals, do you have anything sensible or constructive to say?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteYes, I have no problem with people using LEGALLY farmed tiger parts as medicine. Just because I don't think it works doesn't give me the right to tell someone it doesn't. Cause, honestly, I really don't know. I am merely a guy who trains animal acts (All of which have been quite useful to me so that shoe must have been for someone else) I am not a doctor.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI have just been sitting by "listening" and I have to admit, amazingly you have actually made a lot of sense, which is unusual. LOL I despise the concept of a "canned hunt", probably because I had never considered the "size of the can." A large thousands of acres hunting preserve in Texas, must not be confused with an acre surrounded by hog wire with some unfortunate animal released into it.
I still have a problem, and hope that man kind is smart enough to some day see the idiocy of the concept of eating beef, chickens, pigs, sheep, goats, ostrich, deer, elk, etc. etc as being "all right", yet cry and scream to the heavens at the concept of eating a horse???? I have known some great horses, that I will revere in my heart forever. I have also know a few that I which I could have tried with a nice meat rub.
Wade
(Just to rib Wade a bit and get him agitated)
ReplyDeleteWade,
Is a bullfighting arena the size of the "can" you would approve?
Radar,
ReplyDeleteYou are kidding, right? A canned hunt and a bullfight, are as different as night and day. A canned hunt is conducted by a week end "hobbyist" while a bullfight is conducted by a highly skilled professional. Very much like the difference between you doing a tiger act or myself doing a tiger act. Plus, I DON'T AGITATE EASILY, PAL!!!!
Wade
It could still be argued easily that the inexperienced putz shooting from a Land Rover once is more human then the skill Toreador fighting a bull.
ReplyDeleteJust saying...
I am not against either. And I don't view them as the same. But in both "sports" (Using that word very broadly for canned hunts) the end result is the same. Someone tries to kill an animal in a pen.
Humane* not human in above post
ReplyDeleteCasey,
ReplyDeleteDon't you and Radar have anything better to do, then to try to compare a rock to a piece of marble? Are tigers in a cage getting in fight's the same thing as dog fighting. Why not? Because in one they bet on the winner, and in the other they don't?
Wade
Steve, before you embarass yourself any further, you might wish to do a little research to discover that the principal species bred for their skins in Singapore are caiman, prosus and tomistoma. By the way, you fellas having any problems with those native camels over there, mate? Now, don't tell me they actually BROUGHT a non native species to Australia. You must be fooling.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.singapore-travelogue.com/singapore_living_crocodile_farm.php
hiccup!
Wade,
ReplyDeleteI was not talking about bullfighting. I was using the bullfighting arena as a measure for the size of a "can" you approve of disprove. Guy goes in (whether he pays money or not) to kill an animal in an enclosed space.
It seems a vast generalization that the "weekend enthusiasts" are the canned hunters and "highly skilled professionals" are the bullfighters. Is it not the same as the circus industry where there are both the best and the worst in the two operations?
You mention the difference between you and I doing tiger acts. When the bullfighter is first learning, does he practice on a bull first? How many does he kill in practice before he is allowed to do a show? Is it regulated in Spain? What about Mexico?
Tiger fights and dogfighting is more different than the betting, no? Who trains their tigers to fight each other? We do everything we can to keep them from fighting.
Radar,
ReplyDeleteIt is not a "vast generalization." The "professional" spends thousands of dollars flying to Africa, Asia, or a large Texas type hunting ranch, pays for an expensive hunting permit in either Africa, Asia, etc. that he has been lucky enough to win the opportunity to purchase through a lottery system. The "weekend" enthusiast want's to say he shot, say a lion but as a rule can't afford the cost of doing it on a safari. The "canned hunts" offered him that opportunity. Sadly, in his Private Idaho that put's him right up there with the big boys.
A novice bull fighter doesn't "practice" with fighting bulls. Not only are they far to dangerous, but more importantly a "fighting bull" is only fought once, and then killed, as he very quickly learns how to counter the matador's and becomes too dangerous, or say's forget it, I am not fighting. If a bull was fought over and over, and had damage inflicted to it, over and over again, I would hate it with a passion, as I had any thing where an animal is hurt over and over again. 15 minutes to prove his macho as a fighting bull, and it is over forever. If he is incredible, and performs above and beyond, he is retired to stud and is never touch again. The "novice" practices his movements on yearling substandard bulls(poor conformation, bad horn growth, etc) and often heifer's destined for the slaughter plant. They don't live to one day participate in the ring. They aren't good enough. Very little if any damage is done to the young bull/heifers. The purpose is to only teach the novice matador to read the movement of a bovine, and to practice on how to get it to lower it's head and neck for the kill one day. He is not allowed to ruin or damage a "professional fighting bull." When he goes in the ring for his first fight it's the real deal. Being allowed to "practice" on an animal can and does do it mental damage. As to your question about regulation, yes it is in both Spain and Mexico. Spain has become more stringent then Mexico as animal regulations are different in the US, Australia, Europe and a number of top matador/rejoneadors have chosen to go to Mexico as there is an opportunity for more corriedas.
Dogs are bred to fight as tigers are encouraged to be noisy and give the appearance of aggression. Do fights not occur because some one is in the ring with them, even though we do every thing to prevent it? A dog fighter doesn't want his dog to get hurt, and does everything in advance to prevent it. Do injuries occur when tigers fight. Do injuries occur when dogs fight? Does the dog fighter not pull the dog's apart at a certain point?
Wade
Mouse - go have a look at the place rather than live your life through the internet. You will see that Crocodylus porosus is the commercial species Sure, you can see other species at the park but they are not harvested. Do you seriously believe that tomistoma would be harvested when there are only a couple of thousand left in the world?
ReplyDeleteAnd don't even start on camels, sunshine. You are going off topic and way out of your league on that subject.
It is becoming increasingly obvious why you feel the need to hide behind anonymity.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteGreat stuff, and I agree Anonymouse doesn't seem to have a clue. Just another one to take half a fact, and twist the rest into the shape they see fit.
PS Radar, you need to study, really study the history of bullfighting, the good and the bad(yes, there were a few folks years ago, like what we have in the circus). Basing thought pattern on supposition, innuendo, and hear say is mantra of the ar.
Wade
Thank you for the bullfighting education, Wade.
ReplyDeleteThe dogs are put in the ring to fight. The tigers, as you state, are encouraged to "be noisy and give the appearance of aggression." They are not put in the ring to fight; they are put in the ring to perform tricks.
Radar,
ReplyDeleteAgainst our best intentions, they do get in fights and they do injure each other. Often quite severely. Is motive, they intend to, we don't intend to what makes it different if the result is the same?
Wade
Yes, I think so.
ReplyDelete