A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
Fred Jackson was Alfred Beautour's show name the first years. He trained the lion himself. I now it looks like he presented the lions of Fred Jackson. But its just Alfred himself.
Thomas, This is crazy!!! How is it possible you know something that I don't!!!! I have never heard of the show name "Fred Jackson" used by Beautour. Why would I? It is the dumbest show name I have ever heard. Better to use Samson Golith Beautour, or anything except "Fred Jackson." LOL
What's with welovecosmetic's???? Have to started a new business, or are you just trying to hook up with the two good looking girls?
No this is not Beautour.It is Phillip Gruss with 11 leopards,billed as panthers.I saw this act at Mills that winter.It was the first leopard act that I saw,great act and a great showman.It was originally trained by the french trainer Roger Debill. Jim Clubb
Welvecosmetics is the login of my sisters. LOL I already saw that their was something strange you see in my resume he was in 1960 at Cirque Prin and not at Bertramm Mills so I checked my record and also saw it was Philip Gruss but I was too late. 1983: Cirque Jean Richard (Mary Chipperfield tigers) 1974: Lido Paris (fredy hager leopards) 1966: Gran Circo Francia 1965/1966: Circus Krone, Januar program 1965: City Circus 1964: Grand Cirque 1963/1964: Cirque d’hiver Paris 1961 – 1963: Grand Cirque 1960/1961: Bertram Mills Circus 1959 – 1960: Grand Cirque 1958: Cirque Medrano 1957/1958: Cirque Royal Bruxelles 1957: Cirque Jean Richard 1956/1957: Tom Arnold Arena 1956: Cirque Jerome Medrano 1955: Radio Circus And about the thing of Fred Jackson, nice to now something you didn't know already !
A little more on the leopard act. They advertized 11 animals, but I can only remember seeing nine work and all the photos of the act only show nine. I copied the bridge pyramid for my own leopard act and modified it a little. I suppose it was a cross between the Gruss bridge and Trevor Bale's bridge he used on RBBB for the tigers. I remember being disappointed when I saw the act because I thought it would include black panthers. However, I forgot that the French refer to spotted leopards as panthers as well, another trait I have picked up as I like to refer to both black and spotted as panthers. This act was later passed onto Phillip's sister, Arlette, and then to her second husband George Cobane (sp?)
Just a note here about the European and American positioning of big cats on their side seats. The Europeans generally sit the animals at the back of the cage by the tunnel, the same as the Americans. A few acts, me included, sit the animals on the opposite side facing the tunnel. However, not all of my acts were seated in this way. I sat the mixed polar bear act and all my tiger acts in the back of the cage by the tunnel entrance. The mixed panther act sat at the front of the cage. All the mixed groups sat completely around the cage and the lion acts all sat at the front. Most continental acts sit at the back of the cage like you do in America. When I worked for Chipperfield's, the polar bears sat at the back, as did the tigers. The lions sat along the right hand side and moved into the front as well, depending on how many animals. This is just like Martin Lacey Jnr's act today.
Yes and Arlette presented them at Bouglione, Medrano, Orfei,.. must have a resume some were in my records. Georgika Kobahn took them over when they started Cirque Arlette Gruss and presented them until 1992 in Cirque Arlette Gruss with a break in '90 en '91. But the leopards stayed travelling with Arlette Gruss until 2006. Then they moved the animals to the winterquarters. Here a link were you can see them at their winterquarters: http://www.aucirque.com/actus.php?num=6348&comp=yes
Jim - is there any particular reason why different nationalities side seat their animals in different positions and also, why do you side seat different species in different positions?
Jim, Thank you, great insight. Respectfully, I don't know if sitting on either side of a massive pyramid in the back of the cage is actually "at the back of the cage by the chute." That might be at the left and right side of the cage, extending across the front in large acts, but not at the back of the cage. As I have noted in the past, and I may be wrong, but historically it seems the "sitting at the front of the cage" was a British or more correctly a "Chipperfield" innovation. Being able to place the animals where they are best suited was a rare, rare treat for myself and other Hawthorn trainers. I didn't get the opportunity(or demand and take the opportunity, if you ask John Cuneo, LOL) to "rearrange" a Hawthorn act until 2005 when I pushed the pyramid back and placed three pedestals in the front of it and 4 behind it, later 4 in front and 4 behind. After presenting GGW's act with the freedom of getting everything out of the middle, and being able to move the animals in so many different directions, I realized the hindrance/hardship of moving the animals around to the front, something in the front quarter of the arena to perform and using 3/4 of the back for seating as was the Hawthorn tradition. I just reversed that tradition in 2005 by using 1/4 of the arena for seating and 3/4 for performing, which allowed moving the animals into position faster, cleaner and easier.
The Kelly Miller Circus web site advertizes their cage act as 'half European and half American' Do any of you gentlemen know what kind of an act is half European and half American? Thanks Donny
Donny, I'm sorry, I don't have a clue. I have never heard of a "half European/half American cat act?" Jim, Steve, anybody? Casey or Radar, if you are within ear shot, what is a "half European/half American cat act?
I looked over the Kelly Miller Circus website and could not find anything related to the "half American/half European." Can you send us a link to that reference, Don? I did find a description of the 2010 show and the same pictures from three / four years ago. I know the KM Facebook page does not reference your quote because I created and manage the page daily.
Radar, I saw it on the web site a couple of years ago, as an introduction to what was on the show that year(maybe 2009) and wondered then what it meant. That might be what Don's reference is to. What is a "half European/half American tiger act anyway? It was used on the site, maybe JRN Deuce knows. FYI When you get a minute from managing the face book page you might mention to someone that this is on the 2011 web site: "Casey McCoy and his tremendously talented tigers, featuring rare white tigers." I wonder if they are Burmese tigers?
No European/American style cage act on Kelly Miller. No white "Burmese" tigers either. Not sure who runs the KM site, but I will try to get a note to them. I am pretty sure the white tigers I did have for awhile weren't Burmese though.
And I do say "platz" from time to time cause I like the way it sounds.... I think it's European for box or something. It means nothing to the cats, but it always makes me smile. I also yell out Aaaaaaa-succa! Sometimes cause it makes me laugh, hope that doesn't make it a third columbian.... Lol
Casey and Radar, Platz is "place". What you you mean "you didn't realize?" Did I not do an adequate clinic for you 4 years ago when I was pointing out chapel hips and straight shoulders? We have also discussed what to look for in movement here on the blog in regards to clawed or de clawed. Am I a lousy teacher, or are you just that ignorant and forgot.LOL Some folks, wrongly I suggest, claim it makes them easier to handle and less aggressive. What do you think?
I have found, from my short month and a half experience, the (donthavadehooks) species to not only be more argumentative and vocal, but more aggressive and dangerous to trainer and other cats. They seem to "lead off" with a more serious bite, rather then a love tap "coranado" like the (killersuvdejungle) species. Just my opinion from the two I owned briefly. I will say they were without a doubt, noisier then any cats I ever had.
And yes, I should have noticed right away they were dehooked. I honestly was talked into them and had no desire to have them from the get go. I have never liked the look of white tigers. But the owners had jumped threw a 100 hoops to get me to take them, a decision I will likely regret for a long time.
Casey, As the saying goes, "it's your lie, you can tell it how you want to." :) That's how folks as a rule end up buying a bum horse. They don't bring an appraiser to evaluate it for them, or a veterinarian to sound check it. They pick it out themselves, often times just because it is their favorite color. Send Radar next time. LOL
Wade,
ReplyDeleteThe leopardtrainer from Bertram Mills is Alfredo Beautour.
Jan Ales is from Czech circus Andres.There are some you tube
clips from the act.
Rob.
1989: Circus Holiday
ReplyDelete1988: Circo Mundial
1987: La Voix du Nord
1987: Grand Fete Lilloise du Cirque
1987: Circo Mundial
1987: Cirque Achille Zavatta
1986/1987: Festival du Cirque de Monte Carlo
1986: Circus Krone, Februar program
1985: Osterreicher National Circus
1984: Cirque Achille Zavatta
1983: Cirque Moreno
1982: Cirque Jean Richard
1981: Cirque de Paris
1980: Circus Holiday
1979/1980: Circus Holiday
1979: Cirque Zavatta
1978/1979: Cirque Hiver Bouglione
1978: Circus Alfredo Nock
1976: Cirque Hiver Bouglione
1976: Circo Bruxellas
1974 – 1975: Circo Atlas
1973: New York Circus
1972: Cirque Amar
1970 – 1971: Circo Berlin
1968: Cirque Pinder
1967: Circus Williams
1965 – 1966: Cirque Montmartre
1962 – 1964: Cirque Monumental
1960 – 1961: Cirque Francais Prin
1959: Circo Americano
1958: Cirque Prin
1957: Stop Circus (leopards)
1956: Circo Americano (leopards)
1955: Stop Circus (leopards)
1954: Grand Cirque Russe (Fred Jackson lions)
1952 – 1953: Cirque Eclaire (Fred Jackson lions)
1951: Britannic Circus (Fred Jackson lions)
1944 – 1950: Circus Britannic (acrobat)
Rob and Thomas,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the information.
Thomas, who was "Fred Jackson?"
Wade
Fred Jackson was Alfred Beautour's show name the first years. He trained the lion himself. I now it looks like he presented the lions of Fred Jackson. But its just Alfred himself.
ReplyDeleteThomas
Thomas,
ReplyDeleteThis is crazy!!! How is it possible you know something that I don't!!!! I have never heard of the show name "Fred Jackson" used by Beautour. Why would I? It is the dumbest show name I have ever heard. Better to use Samson Golith Beautour, or anything except "Fred Jackson." LOL
What's with welovecosmetic's???? Have to started a new business, or are you just trying to hook up with the two good looking girls?
Wade
No this is not Beautour.It is Phillip Gruss with 11 leopards,billed as panthers.I saw this act at Mills that winter.It was the first leopard act that I saw,great act and a great showman.It was originally trained by the french trainer Roger Debill.
ReplyDeleteJim Clubb
Thomas,
ReplyDeleteWhoa!!! It's your lucky day, young man. You and Rob got schooled by Jim Clubb. That's called a "higher education" where I come from. LOL
Wade
Well,never to old to learn ,as they say.Thanks for putting it right Jim,
ReplyDeleteGreetings,
Rob.
Wade,
ReplyDeleteWelvecosmetics is the login of my sisters. LOL
I already saw that their was something strange you see in my resume he was in 1960 at Cirque Prin and not at Bertramm Mills so I checked my record and also saw it was Philip Gruss but I was too late.
1983: Cirque Jean Richard (Mary Chipperfield tigers)
1974: Lido Paris (fredy hager leopards)
1966: Gran Circo Francia
1965/1966: Circus Krone, Januar program
1965: City Circus
1964: Grand Cirque
1963/1964: Cirque d’hiver Paris
1961 – 1963: Grand Cirque
1960/1961: Bertram Mills Circus
1959 – 1960: Grand Cirque
1958: Cirque Medrano
1957/1958: Cirque Royal Bruxelles
1957: Cirque Jean Richard
1956/1957: Tom Arnold Arena
1956: Cirque Jerome Medrano
1955: Radio Circus
And about the thing of Fred Jackson, nice to now something you didn't know already !
Regards,
Thomas
A little more on the leopard act. They advertized 11 animals, but I can only remember seeing nine work and all the photos of the act only show nine. I copied the bridge pyramid for my own leopard act and modified it a little. I suppose it was a cross between the Gruss bridge and Trevor Bale's bridge he used on RBBB for the tigers. I remember being disappointed when I saw the act because I thought it would include black panthers. However, I forgot that the French refer to spotted leopards as panthers as well, another trait I have picked up as I like to refer to both black and spotted as panthers. This act was later passed onto Phillip's sister, Arlette, and then to her second husband George Cobane (sp?)
ReplyDeleteJust a note here about the European and American positioning of big cats on their side seats. The Europeans generally sit the animals at the back of the cage by the tunnel, the same as the Americans. A few acts, me included, sit the animals on the opposite side facing the tunnel. However, not all of my acts were seated in this way. I sat the mixed polar bear act and all my tiger acts in the back of the cage by the tunnel entrance. The mixed panther act sat at the front of the cage. All the mixed groups sat completely around the cage and the lion acts all sat at the front. Most continental acts sit at the back of the cage like you do in America. When I worked for Chipperfield's, the polar bears sat at the back, as did the tigers. The lions sat along the right hand side and moved into the front as well, depending on how many animals. This is just like Martin Lacey Jnr's act today.
Jim Clubb
Yes and Arlette presented them at Bouglione, Medrano, Orfei,.. must have a resume some were in my records. Georgika Kobahn took them over when they started Cirque Arlette Gruss and presented them until 1992 in Cirque Arlette Gruss with a break in '90 en '91. But the leopards stayed travelling with Arlette Gruss until 2006. Then they moved the animals to the winterquarters. Here a link were you can see them at their winterquarters: http://www.aucirque.com/actus.php?num=6348&comp=yes
ReplyDeleteThomas
Jim - is there any particular reason why different nationalities side seat their animals in different positions and also, why do you side seat different species in different positions?
ReplyDeleteRegards,
Steve
Jim,
ReplyDeleteThank you, great insight. Respectfully, I don't know if sitting on either side of a massive pyramid in the back of the cage is actually "at the back of the cage by the chute." That might be at the left and right side of the cage, extending across the front in large acts, but not at the back of the cage. As I have noted in the past, and I may be wrong, but historically it seems the "sitting at the front of the cage" was a British or more correctly a "Chipperfield" innovation. Being able to place the animals where they are best suited was a rare, rare treat for myself and other Hawthorn trainers. I didn't get the opportunity(or demand and take the opportunity, if you ask John Cuneo, LOL) to "rearrange" a Hawthorn act until 2005 when I pushed the pyramid back and placed three pedestals in the front of it and 4 behind it, later 4 in front and 4 behind. After presenting GGW's act with the freedom of getting everything out of the middle, and being able to move the animals in so many different directions, I realized the hindrance/hardship of moving the animals around to the front, something in the front quarter of the arena to perform and using 3/4 of the back for seating as was the Hawthorn tradition. I just reversed that tradition in 2005 by using 1/4 of the arena for seating and 3/4 for performing, which allowed moving the animals into position faster, cleaner and easier.
Wade
Does anyone know why the usage of the American sounding name, "Fred Jackson, and when it was used? Was it related to the war in any way?
ReplyDeleteWade
The Kelly Miller Circus web site advertizes their cage act as 'half European and half American' Do any of you gentlemen know what kind of an act is half European and half American? Thanks Donny
ReplyDeleteDonny,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I don't have a clue. I have never heard of a "half European/half American cat act?" Jim, Steve, anybody? Casey or Radar, if you are within ear shot, what is a "half European/half American cat act?
Wade
I looked over the Kelly Miller Circus website and could not find anything related to the "half American/half European." Can you send us a link to that reference, Don? I did find a description of the 2010 show and the same pictures from three / four years ago. I know the KM Facebook page does not reference your quote because I created and manage the page daily.
ReplyDeleteRadar,
ReplyDeleteI saw it on the web site a couple of years ago, as an introduction to what was on the show that year(maybe 2009) and wondered then what it meant. That might be what Don's reference is to. What is a "half European/half American tiger act anyway? It was used on the site, maybe JRN Deuce knows. FYI When you get a minute from managing the face book page you might mention to someone that this is on the 2011 web site: "Casey McCoy and his tremendously talented tigers, featuring rare white tigers." I wonder if they are Burmese tigers?
Wade
No European/American style cage act on Kelly Miller. No white "Burmese" tigers either. Not sure who runs the KM site, but I will try to get a note to them. I am pretty sure the white tigers I did have for awhile weren't Burmese though.
ReplyDeleteI think they were Mexican.
ReplyDeleteThey were the somewhat rare sub-species of (donthavadehooks)) not the more common (killerasofdejungles)....... Lol
ReplyDeleteCasey,
ReplyDeleteWhy take them if they didnthavadehooks?
Wade
And I do say "platz" from time to time cause I like the way it sounds.... I think it's European for box or something. It means nothing to the cats, but it always makes me smile. I also yell out Aaaaaaa-succa! Sometimes cause it makes me laugh, hope that doesn't make it a third columbian.... Lol
ReplyDeleteSadly Wade, and honestly, I didn't realize till I had them 2 days...
ReplyDeleteCasey and Radar,
ReplyDeletePlatz is "place". What you you mean "you didn't realize?" Did I not do an adequate clinic for you 4 years ago when I was pointing out chapel hips and straight shoulders? We have also discussed what to look for in movement here on the blog in regards to clawed or de clawed. Am I a lousy teacher, or are you just that ignorant and forgot.LOL Some folks, wrongly I suggest, claim it makes them easier to handle and less aggressive. What do you think?
Wade
I have found, from my short month and a half experience, the (donthavadehooks) species to not only be more argumentative and vocal, but more aggressive and dangerous to trainer and other cats. They seem to "lead off" with a more serious bite, rather then a love tap "coranado" like the (killersuvdejungle) species. Just my opinion from the two I owned briefly. I will say they were without a doubt, noisier then any cats I ever had.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I should have noticed right away they were dehooked. I honestly was talked into them and had no desire to have them from the get go. I have never liked the look of white tigers. But the owners had jumped threw a 100 hoops to get me to take them, a decision I will likely regret for a long time.
ReplyDeleteCasey,
ReplyDeleteAs the saying goes, "it's your lie, you can tell it how you want to." :) That's how folks as a rule end up buying a bum horse. They don't bring an appraiser to evaluate it for them, or a veterinarian to sound check it. They pick it out themselves, often times just because it is their favorite color. Send Radar next time. LOL
Wade
Radar wanted to keep them even after the writing was on the wall...
ReplyDeleteCasey,
ReplyDeleteOn second thought, don't send Radar. LOL
Wade