Dog trainers on animal planet?
I know this is kinda a weird question. I don't have a dog and haven't really had one in my life. But I dearly love them and other animals. So I watch a lot of dog training shows like on animal planet and what not. And I know my opinion of it. But if you have a dog and watch these shows tell me do you like Victoria Stillwell teaching or that Ceasar M. guy. You know pack leader thing or treats and stuff. I just saw this new show In The Dog House and he believes in no treats. So I though I should ask?
"AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic
collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals."
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/i…
Animal Planet has a great dog training role model in Victoria Stilwell. Why they air Brad's show is beyond me. Clicker training and/or positive reinforcement is the way to go.
I find it insightful that the person asking the question is up front, "I don't have a dog and haven't really had one in my life. But I dearly love them and other animals. So I watch a lot of dog training shows like on animal planet and what not," because most folks won't admit that publicly or privately. Yet with his vast, many years, store house of nothing, he still feels qualified to question one trainer, and endorse another. LOL Not unusual at all, more of a standard operating procedure then an exception, especially if you "love" animals, then you just know.
The person then goes on to list(see link) The American Veterinary Society of Animal of Behavior's position on punishment:
Punishment Position Statement
Dominance, alpha, jerk and hurt methods have been condemned by the AVSAB.
"AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic
collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals."
But I feel just as relevant, which the person answering the question chose not to list is this:
"Punishment should only be used(doesn't sound to me like they disprove?) when the above approach has failed DESPITE an adequate effort(would anyone care to interpret "adequate effort") as part of a larger training or behavior modification that incorporates reinforcement of appropriate behaviors...." This next statement is the most important one for all to consider, yet the libbers and others as qualified chose to ignore it always, "AVSAB recognizes that both positive reinforcement and punishment(I personally think the word discipline is more appropriate and accurate) require SIGNIFICANT SKILL, effort, and awareness on the owners(I think the insertion of trainer would be appropriate here) part."
So it appears, not surprising that even Veterinary Animal Behaviorist's concede that discipline, or negative reinforcement(I still don't like punishment. It seems to suggest a guilt to me) may be the only alternative in some cases. I mean how different really are dogs, tigers, elephants or horse's when you get right down to it. They are positive also on "expert", or who should decide and institute said punishment.
Oddly the trainer this individual is endorsing has a web site titled: "It's me or the dog?" Sound's ominous to me.
That's my take pet owners and animal activist who assume they are animal training experts.
No other profession, in the world, has more of a boat load of experts at it's disposal then the world of animal training. None. A plane goes down, they call in an expert, and it is the same 3 or 4 people year in and year old. Same deal for a nuclear situation, same deal for anything in the world. An animal attack occurs, or a zoo situation, they call in everybody from Jack Hanna, who admits to only getting tagged once, by a bear cub, or Jeff Corwin who makes the time in between collecting snakes or hosting a food show. Cricky, even Steve Irwin got in on a few interviews in the past. The reason why there are so many animal training experts in the world, is that there are just in the United States alone 77.5 million dog owners. If that doesn't qualify you to tell a whale trainer, elephant trainer, feline trainer, even a horse trainer what and how to train, reward, discipline their animals, by God nothing does!!!!
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
If you hear anyone advocate the training methods used by Cesar Milan or Brad Pattison you should tell them no thanks. Their training methods are outdated and do the dog no good and can in fact cause aggression. Dominance, alpha, jerk and hurt methods have been condemned by the AVSAB."AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic
collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals."
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/i…
Animal Planet has a great dog training role model in Victoria Stilwell. Why they air Brad's show is beyond me. Clicker training and/or positive reinforcement is the way to go.
- Asker's Rating:
- Asker's Comment:
- Thank God! I was afraid no-one agreed with me when I started reading my answers. You are so right that whole pack leader crap is really dumb. Dogs have evolved you know? I love Victoria so much better so much smarter!
I find it insightful that the person asking the question is up front, "I don't have a dog and haven't really had one in my life. But I dearly love them and other animals. So I watch a lot of dog training shows like on animal planet and what not," because most folks won't admit that publicly or privately. Yet with his vast, many years, store house of nothing, he still feels qualified to question one trainer, and endorse another. LOL Not unusual at all, more of a standard operating procedure then an exception, especially if you "love" animals, then you just know.
The person then goes on to list(see link) The American Veterinary Society of Animal of Behavior's position on punishment:
Punishment Position Statement
Dominance, alpha, jerk and hurt methods have been condemned by the AVSAB.
"AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic
collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals."
But I feel just as relevant, which the person answering the question chose not to list is this:
"Punishment should only be used(doesn't sound to me like they disprove?) when the above approach has failed DESPITE an adequate effort(would anyone care to interpret "adequate effort") as part of a larger training or behavior modification that incorporates reinforcement of appropriate behaviors...." This next statement is the most important one for all to consider, yet the libbers and others as qualified chose to ignore it always, "AVSAB recognizes that both positive reinforcement and punishment(I personally think the word discipline is more appropriate and accurate) require SIGNIFICANT SKILL, effort, and awareness on the owners(I think the insertion of trainer would be appropriate here) part."
So it appears, not surprising that even Veterinary Animal Behaviorist's concede that discipline, or negative reinforcement(I still don't like punishment. It seems to suggest a guilt to me) may be the only alternative in some cases. I mean how different really are dogs, tigers, elephants or horse's when you get right down to it. They are positive also on "expert", or who should decide and institute said punishment.
Oddly the trainer this individual is endorsing has a web site titled: "It's me or the dog?" Sound's ominous to me.
That's my take pet owners and animal activist who assume they are animal training experts.
No other profession, in the world, has more of a boat load of experts at it's disposal then the world of animal training. None. A plane goes down, they call in an expert, and it is the same 3 or 4 people year in and year old. Same deal for a nuclear situation, same deal for anything in the world. An animal attack occurs, or a zoo situation, they call in everybody from Jack Hanna, who admits to only getting tagged once, by a bear cub, or Jeff Corwin who makes the time in between collecting snakes or hosting a food show. Cricky, even Steve Irwin got in on a few interviews in the past. The reason why there are so many animal training experts in the world, is that there are just in the United States alone 77.5 million dog owners. If that doesn't qualify you to tell a whale trainer, elephant trainer, feline trainer, even a horse trainer what and how to train, reward, discipline their animals, by God nothing does!!!!
"It's Me or the Dog" is the name of Victoria Stillwell's TV show. The idea is that the people who call her in are at the point where one family member is saying that to another. Obviously someone at the network figured that was clever and attention-getting. I don't think it can be taken to imply anything ominous about her methods.
ReplyDeleteShe is a good antidote to Millan whose show opens with a warning basically "don't try this at home." Hard to see what good the show is supposed to be if they warn you not to copy his methods. Very different from the approach on Stillwell's show which is about teaching people what THEY have to do to solve their problem.
Wombat,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the information. First of all Victoria Stillwell is a girl so anything she does with an animal is going to be lame. Whoa!!! Just goofing on you, don't freak. LOL Rarely does anyone working with animals advocate any more then is necessary to get the job done. I think each case is different, and her methods work for what she get's done. But it is limiting, if you wanted to move onto something else with you dog. Funny that there are so many dog trainers making a hell of a living, with so many dog owners telling elephant and tiger trainers how to train their animals. You ask an animal, then you tell them, and then you promise them. Fortunately depending on the situation and the animal, a very, very small percentage has to be promised.
Wade