We will start a new thread here. This is Mr. Emile Smith above.
Not Worthy said...
There you go Wade, discounting someone's experience. Barbara was speaking from her own experience, as was Jim. She was not negating the experience of other trainers, just relating her own. Jesus, man, how can you say on one hand that everyone is welcome in your discussions, but when someone who you consider less qualified, you go out of your way to say that they are full of it. There are few people arouind who have experience with the number of cats that Jim has, but that doesn't mean everyone else's experience means nothing, now does it? Jumps may be easy, but they are included in every act, so they certainly can be called behaviours. If you don't want the input of other 'lesser' trainers, why not just post that at the top of your blog and delete their comments when one of the lower being pipes in.
Wade-
Not able to reach the blog!? Said bad URL and yet I look at the blog everyday...some of the pictures have not been there lately as well!? If you need a different server I recommend wordpess.com
Please post this in the comment area, it should answer all those questions...
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Was going to do a copy paste up but will try to touch on all the questions. This might be long but it’s history and I think answers your questions, definitely too much for this little box and more than I had intended to say!
Let me start with…I’m not an expert! I merely speak from personal experience with tigers, lions, leopards (my personal favorite), cougars, bobcats, Siberian lynx and servals.
Our act consisted of tigers, leopards and cougars. At one time there were as many as thirteen mixed in the cage…we worked them all when we had our own show and cut the numbers and species for the circus…way too long, not appropriate!
Also, I must add that a cat eating a piece of meat while sitting on a sit is NOT a behavior.
Yes, I always wore a treat bag and enjoyed treating the cats with small bits of meat usually eaten from my fingertips and not tossed on the seat unless I was in a hurry. Lilliana used pliers when giving treats and I don’t see anything wrong with that either.
Sounds like you never saw the act or the show but going on bits of speculation or what you have heard.
Let me start with…I’m not an expert! I merely speak from personal experience with tigers, lions, leopards (my personal favorite), cougars, bobcats, Siberian lynx and servals.
Our act consisted of tigers, leopards and cougars. At one time there were as many as thirteen mixed in the cage…we worked them all when we had our own show and cut the numbers and species for the circus…way too long, not appropriate!
Also, I must add that a cat eating a piece of meat while sitting on a sit is NOT a behavior.
Yes, I always wore a treat bag and enjoyed treating the cats with small bits of meat usually eaten from my fingertips and not tossed on the seat unless I was in a hurry. Lilliana used pliers when giving treats and I don’t see anything wrong with that either.
Sounds like you never saw the act or the show but going on bits of speculation or what you have heard.
The first two cats were black, came from Yaro’s cousin Lucio and Guilda Christiani, born on Toby Tyler or just as the season ended, about 12 weeks old when we got them. Sisters, one easy, the other difficult so I just held on to her till she finally caved and accepted me.
Yes, they were declawed, however, I have worked with both and if it was a 'good' declaw, done correctly, it didn't slow them down one bit! I don’t know where you got that from! Only a bad declaw will slow them down and it’s awful! A good experienced vet will spend the extra time sewing the legiments back together.
I do know the difference as I currently have a tiger with a botched piece of surgery, has had corrective surgery and needs more work to be done. He is extremely slow and timid to say the least of the problems not just from the declaw but he is also considered blind (white). He was almost totally lame and now walks like a wind up toy. It is sad to watch!
I don’t believe that having declawed cats makes the cat any less aggressive, makes me any less of a trainer or has made it any easier or even changes my opinion. Paws without claws become paws with workable toes that can grab and hold but I think that’s probably a topic for another day…I must also say the absolute worst injury I have ever experienced was a spotted leopard (declawed) going into estrus, grabbing and holding my leg, and taking a bite with her teeth getting stuck it my shin and knee; I almost lost my leg! Still painful; only gets worse as you get older, lol!
The animals were purchased to be wroked on a leash made of plastic coated airline cable, trained for the magic props and one of many reasons that we declawed them...not that I'd do it again, I wouldn't, now dealing with a botched piece of surgery, if I were to do magic with cats, I'd build props differently. The other reason for the declaw was that was all we had intended to do with the cats...you probably don’t realize I was not familiar with circus when I married Yaro or had any idea of what I was getting into, funny if you think about it. First year out was a real shocker to say the least! I had done stage, a few movies, commercials, voice overs and a lot of stand up comedy in clubs; circus is a different animal all together (pardon the pun).
We were at Medieval Times performing our magic show for several years and looking for ‘growth’. Peter Van Borch (sorry if I spelled that wrong)was there talking up the circus and Yaro wanted to go back to it. We had met Gee Gee at the castle and of course if circus people were like them, I was willing.
Over the years, we ended up with six leopards and the three I currently have but there were the two I spoke of that were ‘given to us’ and reason for the remark, 'get what you pay for'. Both males; one from Harry Dupsky and the other from the magician in Branson; I can’t think of his name. Both were declawed and a bad experience; hard to believe that anyone had ever worked them, both were older and supposed to have been leash trained! On a scale of one to ten, I’d say a ten plus! When I think about them I think of that tiger picture with the tongue curled! There were a couple of others that we opted not to keep for no particular reason except that we decided on the six and all the ones that we didn’t keep were spotted and female.
Tricks/behaviors-what ever rocks your boat for what you want to call it-with the leopards were bottle walk over a high arch, of course sit ups (which I always found difficult in the early days) the jumps, a walk thru the legs like a dog, a dance, a hug and kiss and of course the comedy with the male. I had no formal training in working these animals what so ever with the exception of time spent with Ron and Joy Holiday (mostly on the phone!) who I don’t believe felt their black jag was any more aggressive but of course there is a difference between jag and leopard, you’d need to discuss that with Ron.
We were similar in that we did the ‘magic trick’ and took them out to show them off. Did a behavior or two and put them back in the cage. No dancing, I kept dropping Yaro...
We went to the safari style show a few years later, with the cats on a leash, including the tigers. That was mostly educational, lots of talking with venues of performance by the cats at fairs and on our own; it offered more money. I think we were best known for the educational shows not our abilities as trainers but for the relationship we established with the cats and still got them to perform. But all the same we worked with and took care of the animals daily. Our act was always an ‘extreme close contact’ act with all the cats no matter what species and the only severe injury was with the spotted leopard and a cougar.
I found training tigers a complex feat in itself! With a tiger it seemed to be not just the command but the movement, the body language, but this is coming from someone who worked closely with bonding with the cats for 25 years, not had any formal training and not an expert.
Yes, they were declawed, however, I have worked with both and if it was a 'good' declaw, done correctly, it didn't slow them down one bit! I don’t know where you got that from! Only a bad declaw will slow them down and it’s awful! A good experienced vet will spend the extra time sewing the legiments back together.
I do know the difference as I currently have a tiger with a botched piece of surgery, has had corrective surgery and needs more work to be done. He is extremely slow and timid to say the least of the problems not just from the declaw but he is also considered blind (white). He was almost totally lame and now walks like a wind up toy. It is sad to watch!
I don’t believe that having declawed cats makes the cat any less aggressive, makes me any less of a trainer or has made it any easier or even changes my opinion. Paws without claws become paws with workable toes that can grab and hold but I think that’s probably a topic for another day…I must also say the absolute worst injury I have ever experienced was a spotted leopard (declawed) going into estrus, grabbing and holding my leg, and taking a bite with her teeth getting stuck it my shin and knee; I almost lost my leg! Still painful; only gets worse as you get older, lol!
The animals were purchased to be wroked on a leash made of plastic coated airline cable, trained for the magic props and one of many reasons that we declawed them...not that I'd do it again, I wouldn't, now dealing with a botched piece of surgery, if I were to do magic with cats, I'd build props differently. The other reason for the declaw was that was all we had intended to do with the cats...you probably don’t realize I was not familiar with circus when I married Yaro or had any idea of what I was getting into, funny if you think about it. First year out was a real shocker to say the least! I had done stage, a few movies, commercials, voice overs and a lot of stand up comedy in clubs; circus is a different animal all together (pardon the pun).
We were at Medieval Times performing our magic show for several years and looking for ‘growth’. Peter Van Borch (sorry if I spelled that wrong)was there talking up the circus and Yaro wanted to go back to it. We had met Gee Gee at the castle and of course if circus people were like them, I was willing.
Over the years, we ended up with six leopards and the three I currently have but there were the two I spoke of that were ‘given to us’ and reason for the remark, 'get what you pay for'. Both males; one from Harry Dupsky and the other from the magician in Branson; I can’t think of his name. Both were declawed and a bad experience; hard to believe that anyone had ever worked them, both were older and supposed to have been leash trained! On a scale of one to ten, I’d say a ten plus! When I think about them I think of that tiger picture with the tongue curled! There were a couple of others that we opted not to keep for no particular reason except that we decided on the six and all the ones that we didn’t keep were spotted and female.
Tricks/behaviors-what ever rocks your boat for what you want to call it-with the leopards were bottle walk over a high arch, of course sit ups (which I always found difficult in the early days) the jumps, a walk thru the legs like a dog, a dance, a hug and kiss and of course the comedy with the male. I had no formal training in working these animals what so ever with the exception of time spent with Ron and Joy Holiday (mostly on the phone!) who I don’t believe felt their black jag was any more aggressive but of course there is a difference between jag and leopard, you’d need to discuss that with Ron.
We were similar in that we did the ‘magic trick’ and took them out to show them off. Did a behavior or two and put them back in the cage. No dancing, I kept dropping Yaro...
We went to the safari style show a few years later, with the cats on a leash, including the tigers. That was mostly educational, lots of talking with venues of performance by the cats at fairs and on our own; it offered more money. I think we were best known for the educational shows not our abilities as trainers but for the relationship we established with the cats and still got them to perform. But all the same we worked with and took care of the animals daily. Our act was always an ‘extreme close contact’ act with all the cats no matter what species and the only severe injury was with the spotted leopard and a cougar.
I found training tigers a complex feat in itself! With a tiger it seemed to be not just the command but the movement, the body language, but this is coming from someone who worked closely with bonding with the cats for 25 years, not had any formal training and not an expert.
When things became difficult for us, for one reason or another, it was suggested we do an arena act, which I thought was a joke until Yaro came home with the materials to build one! If Yaro got it into his head that he wanted to do something he would. He was extremely talented but I really don’t believe he had that much exposure to cats himself even though he grew up on the circus and 8th generation…He’d simply look at me and say everyone starts somewhere; just follow my lead…So I’m either very dumb or trusting, but we ended up making a good living at it.
Well, when we started the arena act, we had three tigers (one quite young), the six leopards and four cougars at the time, all leash trained and trying to figure out how to change to the arena style. No sooner had he finished building the cage, George Coronas called for an immediate booking. He didn’t care there weren’t any shute cages, there really wasn’t a polished act at all, I didn’t even have costumes made, hadn't considered music... but he needed the act and no one else was available and we were offered a large sum of money. We went to
Jo Ann Wilson and bought some of her jewelry, at least I’d look a little flashy…we loaded up as quickly as we could and headed down the road. We had just lost a big contract in Lauderdale Lakes because of AR…still today animals are banned from Lauderdale Lakes…we hadn’t done anything wrong they just didn’t like performing animals.
Jo Ann Wilson and bought some of her jewelry, at least I’d look a little flashy…we loaded up as quickly as we could and headed down the road. We had just lost a big contract in Lauderdale Lakes because of AR…still today animals are banned from Lauderdale Lakes…we hadn’t done anything wrong they just didn’t like performing animals.
Ended up I stayed in the back of the ring with the leopards and Yaro up front with the tigers finally built the shute cages and the leashes removed. I mostly worked the leopards, he worked the tigers; the leopards wouldn’t work for him at all, spotted or black with the exception of the neck carry but it’s a neck carry…
I don’t believe the things we did with the cats were of the norm and largely never received the respect of the great trainers such as yourself, but for two people with no experience with cats it was a great adventure.
Yaro died in route and don’t I think he would have had it any other way even if he knew he was so seriously ill. He did the act Sunday night and passed away after making a 300 mile jump to the next town Tuesday evening.
I don’t believe the things we did with the cats were of the norm and largely never received the respect of the great trainers such as yourself, but for two people with no experience with cats it was a great adventure.
Yaro died in route and don’t I think he would have had it any other way even if he knew he was so seriously ill. He did the act Sunday night and passed away after making a 300 mile jump to the next town Tuesday evening.
So yes, I’ve experienced more than a dozen leopards of my own (4 blacks, the rest spotted) and worked with others that were not mine. Of the three leopards I currently own -one spotted, one black; were gotten from a sanctuary that lost their license when the cats were about a year old. The black one is calm and the spotted one is a bit ‘squirrelly’, both female. I raised the other black as a cub and he is calm but more aggressive than the spotted male that was part of the act; he’s not comical.
Maybe your opinion of difficult is different than mine but the easiest to train and the cats I am the most comfortable with are the black leopards. There should be no difference between the two but apparently there is.
I’m hoping by explaining this, you will give some validity to my statements as you seem shocked by them.
There are many people around that have worked both spotted and blacks. Surely someone else besides myself feels the same way.
There are many people around that have worked both spotted and blacks. Surely someone else besides myself feels the same way.
By the way, my cats have always had all their teeth and still gently take bits of meat from my fingertips!
-B
Barbara, I don't know if this was for me or for anonymous. If for me, I will only say that yes, I saw the act in Greyslake with John and Herta Cuneo, and the fair show a few years prior in Sarasota with Jeannette Williams. The rest of my statements I will stand by. I will never make a comment on an act unless I have seen it live or a couple of videos. I don't think a lot of those who make comments, good or bad about an act, are qualified(but some are) to decide if something is good or bad.
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Barbara, I don't know if this was for me or for anonymous. If for me, I will only say that yes, I saw the act in Greyslake with John and Herta Cuneo, and the fair show a few years prior in Sarasota with Jeannette Williams. The rest of my statements I will stand by. I will never make a comment on an act unless I have seen it live or a couple of videos. I don't think a lot of those who make comments, good or bad about an act, are qualified(but some are) to decide if something is good or bad.
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Blog said I talk to much...can not accept more than 4,096 characters, lol!
Incidently, got any idea about my ponies? B
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So there it is Barbara. We got it up for you, and Not Worthy can kiss my rightous ass!!!!! LOL
Wade Burck
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So there it is Barbara. We got it up for you, and Not Worthy can kiss my rightous ass!!!!! LOL
Wade Burck
Posts
7 comments:
Let me ask a question of B.
Did you once have a snow leopard?
If so, I would like the details. From where and when - - -and what happeend to it and when.
I try to keep up with those that have been in circuses and similar venues.
So far in USA I count 4 for sure, to wit; Alfred Court 1; Gilda and Lucio Cristiani 1; Cyndi Gamble 1;and Siegfried and Roy 1.
I cannot find an instance of one being only a menagerie exhibit.
Thanks
First off, thanks Wade even though my opinion doesn't count for much, lol!
But ‘lesser trainer’? No, just not a traditional trainer, could not have been in the given. Not that I take insult from being referred to as a ‘lesser trainer’, just smart enough to know the term is incorrect. Not arguing the point either, I could careless what term anyone chooses to use for anyone not relying on ‘traditional methods’ of training and presenting. I appreciate traditional acts and trainers knowing the degree of difficulty!
But I also appreciate all forms of cat training.
Wondering, what category do you place Siegfried and Roy, Ron and Joy Holiday, Connie Weldie, Lucio and Guilda Christiani and others doing non traditional acts? It’s not as though any of the people in this list ever attempted a traditional cat act…including myself and Yaro, all owned and worked their animals and all professionals…is it maybe a term amongst Cueno trainers or was this term created by circus producers? Wait! Do circus producers even know about this? Does the audience? The USDA? What about the trainer at Wild Adventures? He has the most untraditional act of them all and quite enjoyable I might add. Hell, I never knew trainers fell in categories. Please tell us who or should I say, what we are. How about it, just for a good laugh! Were belts or some sort of lapel pin issued and I never received mine?
Or possibly you meant to say contemporary trainer, I wonder?! Certainly a more appropriate use of words!
-B
Richard:
Yes, we had snow leopards; loved them! I consider them a clown, bouncing high in the air, coming down and doing it again. Actually not a leopard often not even considered a cat!
http://www.agarman.dial.pipex.com/snowlep.htm (reference for Wade)
We had 2, both came from Robert Baudy.
Both leash trained and jump routine…(duh!)
Both died around three years of age. Yes, we had them as part of the menagerie whenever we set one up. Extremely popular animal. Totally unpredictable!
If you have anymore questions, please write me thru my blog:
http://topcatsroar.wordpress.com
Just send a comment.
-B
Barbara,
Did you use the "cute name" Not Worthy" and post the comment above. She used the term "lesser trainers". If so my comments were meant for you. If it wasn't you, and I know who it was, then they were not meant for you.
Wade
Wade, No, I just use the letter B and don't post with a 'ghost pin'
Respect for the blog! Love it!
That comment wasn't directed to you...I saw that you quoted the use of the words however, I did assume that the person had worked for Mr. Cueno as a cat trainer; maybe an error on my behalf...sorry.
All the same, gave me such a giggle as I worked thru the night with the chores and packing wondering about the degrees of cat training, lol! Wanting my lapel pin!
Of course I'm not sure the style of training was respected as the goal was to make it seem easy and flow with the music (difficult for the music director for sure, there were thirteen music cues! in that act)and there were times it wasn't easy for sure...especially if we were taping, seemed to always fall apart about then. Getting thru that act was often a big challenge!
It was difficult putting all that out into words yesterday and then you put it 'out there' on your blog. instead of the comment area like my opinion does count for something.
Hard to loose everything in the blink of an eye and figure out what to do but was how the chips fell. Was like someone flushed the toilet...end of life as I knew it...Aida's words stuck with me the most I think, "You can do it" Ha, still trying...
Seeing it placed there was the first time in an awful long time that I have felt good about what I have already accomplished in my life and my 'non-expert opinion'.
I am known for my relationship with the animals and hoped my take would count for something...
Yaro and I would laugh whenever we heard the myth about black leopards and he would say, 'if they only knew'. Meaning the difference between the trainer being female rather than male with the leopards; once they matured, they 'tolerated' him (accept the male, he loved everyone!) but they 'loved me' except the one (she had trouble tolerating anything!).
Delores Neuman must have had more than 50 leopards and she said the same thing and we worked with her black jag from time to time, a real sweetheart!
I had heard that Gunther hated working with leopards and how unpredictable they can be and reason he retired that act(not sure if any of that is true or not) That was an amazing leopard act!
I was hoping to read what other women thought about this even though none replied, oh well, maybe another day.
Wade, if I thought it came from you I wouldn't have answered at all or returned to this blog.
-B
Hello there my name is Steve Levine and I live in a place called York, which is around the Midlands of Great britain. I am 32 years old and also I have been hitched for Four years. I have Four young children. I look forward to talking with you all in here.
It is my first post here, so I would like to say hallo to all of you! It is uncommonly comfort to be adjacent to your community!
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